Robert Wagner Plot to Kill warren Beatty | hidensneek.com
A friend emailed this to me.... I had never seen it, and although it is a site focusing on celeb humor and satire, this shows that Wagner's little story about waiting for Warren Beatty with a gun wasn't "bought" by everyone in the media. This cartoon shows how ludicrous (and/or insane) his story actually is, and this was put out there long before GNGS. I've read where Wagner fans defend him by saying ludicrous things like, "Oh, he gets mad but he would never act on the anger." I beg to differ. There's a grave in Westwood that proves differently.
"mad"? We all get "mad" but we don't hang around outside of the home of the person we are "mad" at, waiting with guns. His fans have no idea what he would do, what he is capable. As a matter of fact if anyone else told this story his fans would say "RJ would never do such a thing, they are lying about our wonderful RJ." They can't say as such in this case because Mr. Wonderful said it for himself.
ReplyDeleteYou know, it's the Beatty thing that makes me believe Finstadt's story about Natalie catching Wagner with another man.
ReplyDeleteNatalie was always attracted to gay/bisexual men. However, after her split from Wagner, she runs into the arms of America's number one heterosexual, Warren Beatty.
Was it a knee-jerk response to finding Wagner with another man? Did she need to feel sexually attractive to a real (hetero) man?
Unfortuantely, Natalie found that hetero men (Gregson)can be just as bad, and I think that is why she ended up back with Wagner.
Heterosexuality does not make a "real" man.
ReplyDeleteNatalie had said that she felt that in her relationship with Warren she was punishing herself for failing in marriage. That divorce was huge to her, not a little thing as it was to many actresses of that time. She wanted to be married once.
I do agree, however, that much of the attraction to Beatty was sexual. Maybe after finding her husband with a man she needed someone who would make her feel better about herself, sexually. Not to mention that Beatty was gorgeous! Every woman should have at least one "Warren Beatty" in their lives.
My point was that that might have been what Natalie was feeling after the shock of finding Wagner with another man. It may have been her state of mind after such a thing happened. I thought that was obvious.
ReplyDeleteThe more I think of it the more I come to that conclusion. Natalie wanted a 100% heterosexual man to get over the fact that she may have been feeling undesirable after the incident with Wagner. She didn't even like Beatty. As far as I know, Beatty's sexuality was not under suspicion...he was strictly heterosexual, and I think that is the only reason Natalie started the relationship with him.
ReplyDeleteIt's possible as she would never have shared her true feelings in relation to why her marriage ended. She took the rap for years and said nothing. Had she lived and the marriage ended, I doubt that she would have told the truth about Wagner's secrets.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Natalie would ever have said anything. She avoided it in her personal memoirs she started. She was a kind soul...not one to hurt another, and especially a mother who would never hurt their children.
ReplyDeleteAs for Natalie with Beatty...I think Natalie was also attracted to Beatty's REAL talent. (BTW, I corrected the original post -- I had said Wagner chased WALKEN with a gun...I corrected it to Beatty...weird slip!)
Natalie appreciated "real" talent. I'm sure she was probably attracted to it as well, at times. It's what she admired most about Walken, too. Wagner didn't know how to separate feelings, or departmentalize them, as Natalie could. He knew she admired real talent. He was probably just as jealous over the talent the men she worked with possessed as he was over them possibly developing a romantic interest in Natalie. He was very protective of Natalie, as ironic as that sounds because he did nothing to protect her from harm Nov. 28, 1981, which is also indicative of the way he's psychologically wired.
Many ask what she saw in him. No one has answers to what it is that initially attracts one to another. She developed her crush when she first saw him as a child. Maybe it fixated in her mind...she was impressionable at such a tender age. After Gregson, and motherhood, she especially yearned for a regular homelife. Sure, she wanted her career, too (nothing wrong with that) but Wagner was nice to Natalie. He was handsome. He was a good choice to start a family with...a real family. She had no clue, as most wives don't, how far his jealousies could go, no matter what triggered them.
They are really a couple to study. It's so high-profile, and so many women can learn from it. Dennis knew them only for 7 years as a couple. He saw them a lot, and he said they got along fabulously. He also told me that it seemed Wagner was more needy than Natalie. As for the way it all ended, THAT he never saw coming!
We all have faults. Human faults and sinister capabilites are not magically eliminated by celebrity, as many fans can't seem to deal with.
Parts of Wagner's book, such as the gun episode, as Marianne said in another thread, is breathtaking...and not in a good way.
Natalie was a kind soul, Marti. She would never talk about other people. That is why it surprised Ginger Blymyer when Natalie talked about her frustration at Wagner's drinking (while they were filming "The Memory of Eva Ryker"). Ginger said that Natalie never brought her problems to work.
ReplyDeleteWith Beatty, I'm talking more about the initial thing that brought Natalie to Beatty. According to some who worked on Splendor, Natalie really disliked him. She had some sort of nickname for him (something like "mental anguish?").
I can believe that Wagner is an emotionally needy person, but Natalie never struck me as that type. She seemed more the type to want to help a needy person. I was in a relationship with a "needy" type and it can be very demanding of one's patience, and it can also be very satisfying emotionally.
I get the feeling that that weekend Natalie was going through one of the "trying your patience" times. I think she may have been trying to deal with Wagner's jealousy by not giving into him--by not placating him. It could be that she wasn't being "emotionally unfaithful," but she may have been reaching the end of her rope (concerning his jealousy).
Wagner is very needy. His book reeked of it.
ReplyDeleteNatalie confided in her friends. Natalie told Ginger about RJ's drinking when they were at Natalie's house, not a set. That's different from talking to the press about her problems with RJ. I wonder if Natalie told Warren the truth about why she and Wagner split?
I didn't say it was on the set. It was while they were filming "Eva Ryker."
ReplyDeleteI was under the impression from what I read over the years that the personal conversations to do with RJ's drinking took place on their own time during the time of the shoot of Eva Ryker.
ReplyDeleteThis is what Ginger wrote on her Amazon review of GNGS,
ReplyDelete"The last conversation while working on Eva Ryker, was so intimate and truthful. Both Natalie and I were suffering our husband's drinking problems. She also was at a turning point in her life. It was time to go out in new
directions."
The complete review is wonderful and very heartfelt.
She was outgrowing him. She was always trying to improve herself as a woman, as a mother, as a wife, as an actress while he was very stagnant.
ReplyDeleteThere were probably issues there that came to a head during Natalie's final weekend. She had always tried to avoid location work during the 9 years they were married. Maybe she needed to be away from him and his drinking for a while so she accepted even though she'd miss her kids. She knew Willie-Mae would be there for the kids.
I've often wondered what kind of effect the time away in North Carolina for filming Brainstorm had on Natalie. I know she missed her daughters terribly and called them constantly, but I wonder if the time away also gave her time to think about the drinking problem she was experiencing in her marriage. Dennis says he has never met another person in his life who could drink the way RJ drank. RJ could handle the hard stuff ... glass after glass of scoth, and still function as if it were as normal as drinking apple juice all day long.
ReplyDeleteIf you think about how Wagner handled the answer to Natalie being off the yacht (opening a bottle) and staying up the entire night, you get a clear picture of what Natalie was living with. Many alcoholics may be able to function, but their brain is taking a toll, regardless.
Someone I spoke with who did research on Natalie's death says a waitress at Doug's Harbor Reef swears Wagner did NOT drink that night while in the restaurant. Dennis says Wagner did drink, and Dr. Lyndon Taylor told me he was concerned after just passing Wagner in the mens' room...he said Wagner's eyes were so glassed-over that he appeared almost inhuman. Well, the later results of that night are inhuman, so I go with Lyn's and Dennis's accounts.
Wagner was, indeed, a heavy, heavy drinker.
Wagner was the one who sent Dennis to get the wine from the Splendor. Also, didn't he drink at the bar before they sat down to dinner?
ReplyDeleteCould be that Wagner only drank the wine at dinner and that is why the waitress doesn't remember bringing him drinks.
The waitresses changed their story many times, they added and subtracted details depending upon who they were talking to and who was paying them.
ReplyDeleteNot only did Wagner drink at the bar before dinner that night, he drank on the boat with Dennis. The situation (his jealousy and suspicions) was working on him too that night. He was a ticking bomb....the bottle smashing is an act of a deranged person, no question about it. I doubt a sober/sane man would've resorted to such a shocking display of anger.
ReplyDeleteThe waitress who claimed Wagner didn't drink was not paid, but she refused to go on record. There's another waitress who swears she saw Natalie pull up in the dinghy (driving it) ... it's amazing what people THINK they saw and heard that weekend. Someone even said it was Walken with Natalie in Avalon Friday night. Interpretations and accounts vary in this tragedy...I believe Dennis because not only was he part of the foursome that weekend, and quite up close and personal, he's the only one I know of who sat with a certified polygraphist (and passed), and that means more than many are willing to accept.
The first thing that Wagner did when Dennis met him on the rear deck (after the fight) was to escort Dennis off of the rear deck and into Wagner's stateroom.
ReplyDeleteI think Wagner definitely had his wits about him. Wht was so awful that he didn't want Dennis to see?
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ReplyDeleteIn retrospect it is so obvious that Wagner was trying to prevent Dennis from seeing what he was doing and what he had done. He knew damn well that Natalie was not at the front of the boat. He was with her on the back deck and all of a sudden she is gone?
ReplyDeleteKevin,
ReplyDeleteThat's the thing I can't fully understand... I believe he was drunk enough to totally not care about the grave situation Natalie was in, yet he had his wits about him to divert Dennis, to NOT call for help, to allow Natalie enough time to DIE, and he was up all night preparing an alibi with Dennis. Maybe the glassed-over eyes had more to do with a madman than a drunk. Only Wagner knows that.
But let us not forget what Natasha said on that talk show, that Wagner could drink her friends under the table, that he DID have his wits about him when drunk.
ReplyDeleteThat was the first thing Wagner did--he directed Dennis away from the back of the boat.
ReplyDeleteThe official story is really laughable. We know the truth, and yet this man gets to go about his life as if he had nothing to do with Natalie's death. He doesn't have to answer for it in any way, or to anyone. That is so wrong.
I think it was a combination of alcohol and all of that tension Wagner was carrying around. I think they can be lethal.
Some people drink and the alcohol makes them very mellow and sentimental. For others, alcohol seems to fuel the tension until it turns violent (I've seen that happen).
The booze fueled his jealousy, also. The way he behaved on Friday night, wanting to move the boat. A very childish response to his jealousy.
ReplyDeleteRoz,
ReplyDeleteExactly. Wagner was a seasoned drinker...He could hold his liquor. Dennis wasn't so good at doing that, and Wagner knew it. He knew Dennis's limits on drinking and that's why he tried to get Dennis plastered, pass-out kind of drunk after Natalie was off the boat. Dennis had every right to fear for his own safety that night. He drank after Natalie was missing, but not the way Wagner wanted him to drink. Dennis was on-guard, make no mistake about it. His only spark of hope was that Natalie would return in the dinghy, although his better senses told him she wasn't out driving the dinghy around. He was so torn...believe Wagner or his better senses? Sadly, Dennis trusted in Wagner and regrets it to this day.
You're right, Marti, Wagner was trying to prevent Dennis from becoming agitated over Natalie's sudden disappearance. He probably was hoping Dennis would pass out.
ReplyDeleteI feel so bad for Dennis, knowing how I would feel, he just has to remember it is all Wagner's doing.
ReplyDeleteI, too, feel very bad for Dennis. What else was he to do? Wagner had the upper hand, and he was Dennis' boss. Dennis feared for his own safety. It wasn't Dennis' fault. All the fault lies with Wagner.
ReplyDeleteIn one of Wagner's bogus interviews (was it the Cindy Adams' one?), he claimed that he and Walken have "gone over and over it" (that night), asking each other, "Did you HEAR anything?"
ReplyDeleteThat just REEKS of b.s.! First of all, he wants to give the impression that he and Walken are buddy-buddy. "They've gone OVER and OVER it?" Yeah, right, like they've tried to understand it on a number of occasions together, crying on each other's shoulders.
And even if you believed that Wagner and Walken actually have done that (trying to understand what happened and how), then why didn't Wagner DEMAND in November, 1981, and beyond that there be a more thorough investigation?
If you have supposedly tortured yourself, as Wagner would have us believe, in trying to figure it out, why have you done EVERYTHING you could to discourage an investigation and to squelch others (Dennis, Marti, Marilyn Wayne, Lana) from talking about it and asking questions?
There is NO way that Wagner and Walken (or anyone else) have gone over and over it, trying to figure it out. The totality of Wagner's behavior and words scream otherwise.
Wagner and Walken have asked each other repeatedly, "Did you HEAR anything?" Why the hell did Wagner avoid Marilyn Wayne when he saw her in a restaurant two weeks later? He knew that she SAID she heard something. Why didn't he ask HER "over and over" what she ACTUALLY heard!
ReplyDeleteAnd why was Marilyn Wayne threatened not to talk by Wagner's goons?
Yeah, Wagner has searched for "answers" as much as OJ Simpson has searched for the people that killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.
You said it all, Marianne! He is such a massive liar, such a phony. His actions speak louder than his empty words. Talk is cheap, Mr. Wagner!
ReplyDeleteWagner never once asked the detectives if they had any clue what had happened. He needed no answers. He was more afraid of questions than answers.
ReplyDeleteWagner never went OVER and OVER it with Dennis and Dennis lived with him for a year after Natalie died! In fact, when Dennis did want to talk about it a few times throughout that year, Wagner quickly let it be known that it was a subject off limits! Why didn't Wagner want to go over it and over it with Dennis? He didn't want to know because he knew Dennis knew too much damaging information. But, he had no idea that Dennis had seen Natalie on the back deck with Wagner wearing only her nightgown. But, he did know that Dennis heard the terrible fight in the stateroom, because Dennis had knocked on their door to try to help stop the fighting. Wagner sent him away fast. Wagner knows that Dennis knows Wagner never left Natalie's side after the bottle smashing, but that's completely different than what Wagner told the detectives. Robert Wagner is a liar.