This day meant so much to Natalie. Dennis says she was so excited to participate in the parade, and that she felt so honored to have been asked. She loved the holidays and went all out every year to turn her home into a Christmas wonderland. It would start with Thanksgiving Day...her home was opened to family and friends with a huge buffet and good cheer. The mood would carry over to Christmas than culminate with the Wagner's black-tie New Year's Eve party each year. Dennis attended many of the holiday festivities at the Wagner home each year. He says it was always lively and fun-filled.
Natalie loved her husband and she loved her family. She married her husband twice because she was a caring, loving, hopeful person, and she always wanted a lasting love and a family life. She also wanted a successful acting career and in no way did her ambition detract from her love of family life. Natalie was living an optimistic life at the time of this parade, but within two years of it, she would be mysteriously dead because she had married a man twice she didn't realize would not want the same for her as she wanted for herself. Many women juggle career and homelife, and Natalie saw no harm in wanting that. However, she was married to a man who did. He called her desire to work "career demons."
Robert Wagner gets top billing over Natalie?! Sacrilege!! I find this a very sad video. They really could have had the perfect life presented here, if the man she married hadn't been a dark, narcisstic personality. Poor Natalie, the quest for happiness allowed her to settle for something that wasn't right the first time around.
ReplyDeleteRobert Wagner is such a HYPOCRITE. He didn't want Natalie to act in films because he supposedly wanted her spend her time with their daughter.
ReplyDeleteNatalie's career should have been in its prime during their marriage, but she sacrificed it for her family.
Yet HE was out starring in his own weekly TV series, and on top of that appearing in several films and making guest spots on other shows - I imagine he must have been at work most of the time while she was staying home.
Wouldn't it be more practical that HE stayed home and didn't work, and let her act in films? Because making a movie is a pick-and-chose job and they usually take 1-2 months to shoot, while a TV series is a regular job with major commitment.
Also, movies Natalie could have starred in would have brought in more income than his show, and they would have been better quality entertainment.
He simply had too much of an ego to have a wife be more famous than he. Total hypocrite. Just imagine what Natalie's film credits could have been.
She wanted to be home when her kids were in the younger but when they were in school full time she wanted to go back to work. He wanted her home because he wanted her home. He used the kids as an excuse. In reading his book one can see that he is a male chauvinist pig. He wants the woman in his life to exist for him. To refer to her desire to her desire to do something she enjoyed as a "demon" points to his selfishness and his chauvinism. It's OK for a man to desire a successful career but for a woman it's a "career demon"?
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure it was male chauvinism as much as it was concern for the children. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. However, in his own book, "Pieces of My Heart," Wagner writes that his parents shipped him and his sister off to boarding schools because the parents were more concerned with their own social life. In other words, the kids got in the way. Wagner seemed sure that he would not raise his own children that way.
ReplyDeleteI have to say that I truly believe the man has some good qualiteies. Why he did such a terrible thing I don't pretend to know.
In my opinion, in his mind he felt betrayed by Natalie. I think he twisted things to the point where he could not discern what was truth and what was fiction. I think it caused an anger he could not overcome. I think that anger blinded him to what was right and what was wrong.
He could have saved Natalie--and himself-- if he could have broken through that anger.
What bothers me more than anything is the fact that Mr Wagner refuses to take responsibility for his actions.
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Wagner was shipped off to boarding school? That explains a lot. Especially his inability to form true attachments to people unless it benefits him. I'm sure everyone has good qualities (or can fake them in Wagner's case) but Wagner's don't stand out for me.
ReplyDeleteHe may have been wonderful until things did not go his way.
ReplyDeleteHe comes across to me as a major kiss ass and a narcissistic, phony son of a bitch who wants it his way or no way.
How can a man who is so consumed with his image to expected to admit to what he did?
I can't believe how people fell for that Mr. Nice Guy, poor me BS that he put in his book.
Imagine the sense of betrayal Natalie the night she died. I fail to see any good qualities in a man who did what he did thought of nothing but the lies he could tell to cover his ass.
I agree, he was a nice guy when everything was going his way but when things went contrary to what he wanted, his DEMONS emerged.
ReplyDeleteI have absolute no respect for him. Natalie's kids seem to be in it for the money at this point. He controls their financial future. Neither of
Natalie's kids is overly ambitious. Of course they are not going to say anything negative about him. Sorry, that's how this guy feels. I'll understand if Marti deletes my comment.
Yes, he was shipped off to boarding school. In fact, he states that he had more of a relationship with the porter on the train that took him home for visits, than he did with his own mother and father.
ReplyDeleteYep, that's pretty much how you build a sociopath. I respectully disagree about Natalie's children. Wagner was their only parent for most of their lives. Presumably, he was good to them so of course they would be loyal and attached. They may have read about their mother's death, but to let themselves believe that Wagner was responsible would be to lose the last parent they have. I know they are grown women but we all have strong connections to our childhood beliefs and our all powerful parents. Natasha once described Wagner as the man who rescued her mother and herself. Tough to lose that image.
ReplyDeleteSorry, missed the f in respectfully.
ReplyDeleteI remember watching this parade live on t.v. in my bedroom and seeing them in it. I was just a kid then, but I can recall it like it happened yesterday.
ReplyDeleteThere is a particular photo of Natalie and her family along with the famous Vanity Fair article. This photo was taken the same night of the parade. They are all bundled up because it was very windy and chilly that night in Los Angeles. Natalie has her hat off in it, and she looks so radiant and joyful. She GLOWS. I could not take my eyes off that picture--I had never seen it before I got the article. She was just SO stunning!
Every time I have seen this clip of the parade on You Tube, I have bittersweet memories. It was such a happy occasion for Natalie, doing what she loved with her family during a season that she relished. And two years later, she was gone. While it's great to see clips like this, it also is heartbreaking.
Yes, the "demons"--the only demons that ever existed were the ones that robbed Natalie of her life. Those were Wagner's alcohol-fueled jealousies, insecurities, and rage. THOSE were demons, not Natalie's wish to be productive and do what she loved. She could've done that AND raised her children, but Wagner's demons obliterated all that. What a selfish, snobby, self-important jackass.
ReplyDeleteImagine, Natalie, a three-time nominee for an Academy Award. Then there's Wagner, whose most famous movie role was a supporting one in one of the "Pink Panther" films. Oh, yes, there was his role as Number Two in the "Austin Powers" series! Oh, but wait, there's more--he was friends with "all of the greats" (because he could never be one of them).
This story is just endlessly heartbreaking.
I think the bond between Wagner and his daughters is very strong. I think he really is their hero. That is why this is such a terrible tragedy.
ReplyDeleteHe raised the kids along with their Nanny. She was the maternal presence in their lives after Natalie died.
ReplyDeleteNatalie requested that she remain with the girls until they reached their majority. Her salary was paid from Natalie's estate. That's something that Robert Wagner has never shared about Willie Mae, that he did not pay her salary.
I agree that no child, no matter what age, wants to believe that their father killed their mother or even mistreated their mother. I believe that they believe him but I also believe that he manipulated them from childhood.
Interestingly, Natasha has made a point of saying that Jill played no part in her upbringing.
Their hero has lied to them all of their lives. I'm sure he told them that he is keeping quiet to protect their mother. We can only imagine what he told them and what he hasn't told them. I don't think he is a nice man, at all. I think he is evil.
ReplyDeleteEarly on in his employment, Dennis really liked Wagner -- he bonded with him and spent many memorable fishing excursion with him and a true friendship grew. They both shared a love of boating and the sea, so they got along well, but there were little idiosyncrasies Dennis always noticed, too, and he could easily recognize that Natalie was the strength of the relationship. If Natasha has said her father rescued her and her mother, I would suspect that's part of the brainwashing that occurred after Natalie's death. Yes, Natalie was looking for love when she and Wagner reconciled, but she wasn't looking for someone to "save her." She didn't need rescuing. She needed to be loved and had felt terribly betrayed by husband Gregson. She may have been slightly vulnerable, but certainly not desperate. Maybe her vulnerability at that time factored into her decision to try again with RJ. Maybe she chalked up the episode that broke up their first marriage to a short-lived tendency on RJ's part. Natalie was ultimately a fair-minded person, but she never forgot how her first marriage ended. She knew Wagner would never want to lose her again -- at least that's what she believed, and it was probably true, and when the fear of losing her to a career or to another man
ReplyDeletebecame an issue in Wagner's mind again, the results were tragic.
I'll never forget the night in the NY tavern when Dennis instantly turned melancholy and said the words, "He's evil" to me. I tried for years to look for any good in Wagner to somehow understand his actions, and sometimes I would get to that point, then the image of a terrified Natalie floating in the ocean she so deathly feared always popped up in my head, and I can muster no respect, regard, sympathy, understanding, comprehension or a drop of compassion for the man. Make no mistake about it -- leaving her out there to suffer such a horrid death was nothing but a cold, calculated CHOICE.
As for Natasha and Courtney, I would not delete the post about their motives. It's a valid possibility. Remember, the thought of them losing their father, too, paralyzed and muted Dennis for so long. He couldn't bear seeing them go through that. My heart has always ached for them, and it angers me when fools won't accept that I sincerely believe they are the truest victims of all, next to their mother, in this awful heartbreaking experience.
All I ever needed when confusion gripped me was to imagine Natalie's terror in the ocean, and then to think about the way her death was handled always renewed my motivation. Believe me, fitting a book of this caliber into my busy life was like trying to squeeze the 30th person into a VW bug. It was a great effort, but I have no regrets. I still can't believe it's published! I will always be grateful to the late Michael Viner, the first brave enough publisher to take it on. When I describe GNGS, it's usually with the sentence, "It's the story that needed to be told."
Natasha should have went to live with her father instead of Wagner after Natalie died. He programmer lies and hate into her. I can't believe Richard Gregson didn't attempt to get custody of his own daughter.
ReplyDelete*Mispelled programmed ^
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify about Natasha's comment. Of course Natalie didn't need rescuing. This was her recounting from a little girl's view of how Wagner "swept" into their lives and things got better. I'm sure Natalie was very sad after her divorce and children are always sensitive to that. If Natalie became happier after Wagner came into the picture, you can see how a child would view that as being rescued. This was strictly Natasha's perception, Natalie never echoed those sentiments. I wish I could remember where I saw the interview. Maybe You Tube has it somewhere. Yes, Kevin has listed his name differently and I was surprised by the good qualities comment.
ReplyDeleteYou are insane. "Polishing Wagner's armor?" How does saying the man has some good qualities detract from my belief that Wagner is responsible for Natalie's death?
ReplyDeleteI think you have gone way overboard.
Natalie's daughters have described Wagner as a "hero." You are reading it wrong. I was agreeing with Anonymous 4:39. I have heard the two daughters refer to him that way on more than one occasion.
As for my name, I took off my last name and left the initial. However, I am not afraid to leave my name.
I smell something else.
To be honest, I was surprised as Kevin's softening, too, but I understand trying to analyze and look for answers as to WHY?
ReplyDeleteWHY was something I struggled with for the longest time. It hit me like a bolt of lightening one night.
As in the OJ Simpson/Nicole Brown case, there was no need to question WHY. It wasn't because Nicole finally moved on and that angered and enraged OJ. It wasn't because she slept with other men. It wasn't because he thought she was a negligent mother for going out without the children. Those are the EXCUSES, the RATIONALIZATIONS the killer uses to convince himself of innocence or justification for his act. There is no valid, reasonable explanation to answer WHY. It simply takes a sociopathic, deranged mind to react in such a manner. The why is because some people are simply that hollow, that selfish, that self-worshipping. Plainly, that EVIL-MINDED.
Anyhow, can't wait to hear from you, Kevin.
Marti, Go back and read my very first post.
ReplyDeleteOkay, Kevin, as long as it's YOU.
ReplyDeleteMarti,
ReplyDeleteI was reading your post and it disappeared now is back. Want to say you are one sharp cookie. SOme people are naturally born to ... look out for number one.
I had taken the post down to correct a spelling but still have a few typos. I tend to type fast and am more lazy with grammar on the blog. Hope that's always understood. I'm not trying to live up to any writing expectations here. There were times I would spend 5 hours on one paragraph. It had to be that way for the book, but here, I'm more relaxed. And there are passages in the book that I re-read and wish I could do over...just for presentation, not for content. Wouldn't want anyone misconstruing that statement! I was once accused of having "back stories" to something as simple as a conversation with a reporter. As if I wouldn't have all that backed-up. Those people really wouldn't want to hear the back stories I have. I only wrote about what I could prove. The other half of it is just as real but not provable.
ReplyDeleteWant to add something here tonight: I love the way all of you present your thoughts. Your are all terrific writers with a remarkable ability to express your perceptions. I learn from you. I'm not a "polished writer" -- I had lots of excellent editing help from my friend and professional copy editor, Carol Lallier, with GNGS. And author Mark Weston was such a help in teaching me how to release my emotion. I've always been so passionate and emotional over this travesty of justice and for the way Natalie suffered. But it was difficult for me to "become an author" -- Prior, I wrote business type articles and fluff pieces, poetry, lyrics, and had fun with fiction writing. I wrote two other books, still sitting in files I'd like to look at again. GNGS was really a task until I found it was easiest for me to just tell it: to present it the way only I could because of the experience with it. Some liked it and some didn't. One publisher said it was "weird" the way I told it. Others recognized there could be no other way to tell it. I didn't worry about anything but getting the information down. Over 120 pages were cut from GNGS because some terribly emotional nights I just didn't know when to stop. like maybe now?
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, just wanted to say I really appreciate the way all of you articulate your thoughts here. It's so helpful and inspiring. Thank you.
"I took off my last name and left the initial" Kevin R has never used his last name. My, my, we didn't do our homework very well, did we?
ReplyDeleteThis is all a big put on by the Robert Wagner flag waver who frequents this blog. Of all the things that were said, including the true Kevin's feeling that Wagner threw Natalie in the water and that Wagner never loved Natalie, this Kevin impersonator comments on the name change.
ReplyDeleteThis person who is impersonating Kevin is the same person who threatened Marti with the actions of the powerful group. He is throwing a little bit of criticism of Wagner so that we will not see through the veil.
As for someone being in sane, I beg to differ.
Marti, When I wrote that Wagner has some good qualities, I was referring to the way he raised his children. That was all that was meant by that sentence.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I never said that Natalie betrayed Wagner. I said Wagner thought that in his own mind. His anger blinded him from what was really going on that weekend. I think every time Natalie talked to Walken it was blown way out of proportion in Wagner's mind.
Nice try!
ReplyDeleteNow tell us how you feel about how Wagner murdered Natalie, picked her up and threw her in the water.
And all of the "Marti" LMAO
This is really becoming a problem on this blog.
ReplyDeleteI am not going to defend everything I say here.
If you can't understand how anger played a part in Wagner throwing Natalie in the water than I don't think you really understand what was going on that fateful weekend.
OMG! That is someone impersonating Kevin. Ms. Rulli, you need to check the IP for the REAL Kevin R. That is not Kevin R. This Kevinr is an imposter!
ReplyDeleteMarti, Please check my address to prove to this person I am Kevin R.
ReplyDeleteWe went from having some nice qualities to being capable of killing his wife is a vicious manner because he was angry at her.
ReplyDeleteThe REAL Kevin did not use anger as an excuse. We all get angry at our significant others but to pick them up and throw them in the water and wait hours so call for help so ensure that the spouse dies the death she feared all her life. That goes beyond anger.
You are becoming a real problem on this blog. and that comment about no longer using your last name. Kevin never used his last name. You outed yourself right there. You are the troll from last week, the person who threatened Marti.
The REAL Kevin understood what happened on that weekend, he understood perfectly. His understanding is very different from yours. Your identity theft is not working. We're on to you. It didn't take long, did it?
"This person" There you go again. Believing that all of these posts are from the same person. You outed yourself again.
ReplyDeleteKevinr checked out the posts of the real Kevin and now he typed his name the right way. So predictable.LOL
Honestly, I never know who anyone is because the majority of signatures are signed Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteExcept for Marianne9, Sky Princess and myself, just about all signatures are Anonymous.
I typed "this person" because I thought it was one person leaving the comments as Anonymous, this morning.
ReplyDeleteHow can I tell. Use a name!
If you are going to be a regular poster at this blog than you should use a name to identify yourself. What are you afraid of?
ReplyDeleteThat is directed to all people that comment regularly as "Anonymous."
Why do you hide behind the name Anonymous?
ReplyDeleteI've never been afraid of leaving my name. I think it lends credibility to the blog.
I think you are the troll hiding behind the name "Anonymous."
ReplyDeleteYou are always pointing fingers at other people, but you hide behind "Anonymous."
I think most of us are happy that we post anonymously so that sickos like yourself cannot use our names, steal our identity.
ReplyDeleteCredibility? LMAO. Do you mean when you said that you used to use your last name but stopped? That kind of credibility? The real Kevin never used his last name.
You are the same sick troll who has infected this board.
Yes, on Amazon I was using my last name and after an incident with that guy "Jocko" I stopped.
ReplyDeleteCheck all of my comments under Wagner's book and you will see Kevinr now.
However, using a name to identify yourself lends credibility to this site.
There is something very suspicious about a person like you who points fingers but hides behind "Anonymous."
I would venture to guess that you are from Wagner's camp.
Kevin, I'm going to email you, ok?
ReplyDeleteThanks Marti. I don't like this at all.
ReplyDeleteMarti - This is Skyler who created the tribute poster to Natalie that's at the bottom of ur site ... kevinr is the same Kevin that worked on that tribute and that has been communicating on ur site.
ReplyDeleteSkyler
Kevin, I emailed you and look forward to your response via email. Thanks, Marti
ReplyDeleteThanks Marti, I emailed you back.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'll erase everything up to this point. Kevin (the REAL one!) emailed me and it's clear that his Wagner comments were misinterpreted. I won't speak for him, but I have no doubt that Kevin understands the tragedy as a whole. We can discuss why Wagner is admired by his daughters. We can discuss how his dillusional anger played a huge part in what happened to Natalie without it meaning we defend him. IMO, he has no defense. He left Natalie to die. That is a FACT. There's no defense for that, but as for WHY he did it, we all are entitled to our individual opinions on that.
ReplyDeleteKevin,
ReplyDeleteThere were several of us here (not only one)wondering if it was really you and I'm glad to hear it was. I believe Natalie's daughters were brought up to never question their mom's death. I understand why they cling to their only surviving parent (even in the step-father sense). I also understand what you were trying to say but I also understand why some of us were wondering if it was really you. Sorry for the input about all this but we all know you as the Natalie defender and it threw us off course. I'm game to discuss Wagner's motives.
Lawyers would discuss his motives. Why shouldn't we? Maybe we can give them some ideas. I think this is an intelligent group and we must stick together as we discuss all sides of this thing. Thank you Marti for what you said in your comment that you are inspired by us. Many authors don't give their readers the time of day. I sense that you really do appreciate us and that means alot.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't in any way defending him. I'm convinced that Wagner put Natalie into the water. He was fighting with her until the moment she disappeared. I can't see any other way Natalie ended up in the ocean.
ReplyDeleteI got to thinking about why he was so angry. I don't think you smash a wine bottle on a coffee table unless you are really angry. Most people would come around after an argument ending with a loved one in peril. But Wagner didn't come around. He saw it through until Natalie was dead. That was definitely his intention, to let Natalie die. His actions that night tell me that is what he wanted.
I was trying to show how on one hand he is so loved by his daughters, and on the other he could do what he did to Natalie.
Yes, there were several people questioning your identity and I'm always surprised when people can't hear the difference in the "voices" whether they post anonymous or not. Marti has made you a dead issue, but I am curious, if you don't mind answering, why the signature change after all this time?
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget about the suicide attempts. There's one daughter who might not think he's all that. She didn't show up for his 80th BD. What else could've been more important(?) She's not a traveler is she?
ReplyDeleteMarti -
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned that Natalie, 'never forgot how her first marriage ended.'
I was wondering if you thought any of the problems from that marriage to Wagner played a part in what happened the night that Natalie died?
Wagner seems to have been a ticking bomb and something sent him over the edge of no return that night.
I do not believe that what happened was, for lack of a better explanation, a sudden act of rage. I think what happened had been building for a long time inside of him.
I agree he was a ticking bomb. Anyone who wanted to be a movie star that bad, had to resent living in the shadow of someone who actually was. (second best to a woman, too.) Wagner knows that he was invited to major events because of Natalie, he was just basically holding her purse. Finally, he achieves success on the small screen. (which he looks down on, as did the studios) He's a big fish in his small pond. What's this? Natalie is thinking about reviving her career? She's sure to eclipse me again and I will once again be relegated to Mr. Wood. Damn, just when I had her under my thumb at home. Tick, tick . . .
ReplyDeleteWagner turned 80 after GNGS came out. It could be that the book had an impact on one or more of them. Dennis was someone that they had a relationship with, and I would think his word would carry some weight. I imagine it could be very troubling for them to read this book (if they have) because it would--at the very least--tell them their father has lied to them. I think it would make me question everything the man ever told me.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous 1:32: It was simply easier to write my name that way. I didn't give it a second thought. However, I didn't know about all of the trouble a certain person has been causing. If I considered that I probably wouldn't have changed my signature.
Anonymous 1:13 says it perfectly. He was a ticking bomb, never to be overshadowed again.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever forgets anything about a relationship they are in, even if there was a "break" inbetween. In this case, we're talking two MARRIAGES. Natalie never forgot, nor did Wagner forget what happened in each marriage.
Natalie saw a therapist regularly all in an effort to understand herself and her relationships and how it all related to her career and ambitions.
Natalie wanted a successful career because she loved the industry. Sure, there's probably a competitiveness involved with all performers, but she really wanted to succeed to compliment the overall inustry. Wagner's intentions seem different to me, especially after reading his overblown toots in his autobiography.
He seems to have wanted the popularity for self-interest, and seems to have remained the star-struck personality type. He wanted to be the popular actor who keeps "the little woman at home he's still faithful to despite that he could have anyone he wants." Having the "once popular" (in his mind) Natalie Wood at home as that wife sweetened the pot. He probably really believed he eclipsed her. Then she's starring with the latest handsome Oscar winner? He ticked, and then he exploded. He's a self-absorbed man.
Kevin, I'm glad we corresponded through emails. I was getting a little concerned because I've seen what has happened at so many other Internet sites over this topic, and I didn't want that happening here. But, I am completely sure and relieved that it was you here. Thanks for understanding why we were concerned.
ReplyDeleteThanks Marti,
ReplyDeleteI am very happy it has been cleared up. It was strange trying to convince people I was me. Everything I said seemed to make me look more guilty. Seems funny now.
Just to continue my train of thought about Wagner, I also think he coldly and carefully weighed his options about saving Natalie that night, while she was in the water.
ReplyDeleteA living Natalie, pulled from the sea, would have destroyed Wagner. Divorcing him would have been the least of it.
A dead Natalie could not tell the horrible truth about EVERYTHING Wagner did to her that night.
A dead Natalie would allow him to be the grieving widower, the shattered man left behind with two small children to raise in one of Hollywood's most tragic of love stories.
A dead Natalie would allow him to be the brave soul who struggled on to put his life and career back together after such a shocking and sudden loss.
Yes, he weighed his options.
And Natalie lost her life.
Well put, and exactly what you could imagine Wagner's feverish mind contemplating. I also want to address Kevin. I'm also glad that you could understand the circumstances of why everyone's radar went up. This mission is so close to bearing fruit. The paperback's arrival and Marti's optimism about things getting ready to fall into place, has set alarm bells off in Wagner Land. Now we're not just debating, things are going to start happening that do not favor their hero. Can't you feel the excitement and urgency in the air? Of course they're going to start launching kamikaze attacks on us at an even higher rate. Marti has been shockingly threatened on her own blog! This is the atmosphere we are moving in to and fans will be even more protective of Marti and vigilant to a fault.
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe we all need to brace ourselves. What's about to come is far more explosive than whatever transpired over the hardcover release. The bigger the lull, the bigger the storm, and we've had a huge lull.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm very happy to hear that the paperback edition will be coming out soon. I can't wait to see what will happen next, and I hope the book gets a lot of coverage.
ReplyDeleteI bought the hardcover just about a year ago.
It took me a couple of reads (going back over certain chapters) to realize that I wasn't reading a National Enquirer article. I think I have been so conditioned to expect sensationalized writing where a celebrity is concerned that the book caught me by surprise. I can remember that moment when I realized that what I was reading was an eyewitness account of that weekend. I remember thinking that I had finally read the truth about Natalie's death.
Kevin, that's one of the nicest things anyone could say about GNGS. While some people have accused me of exploiting the story, and stretching for Dennis because he's my friend, it was actually the other way around. I took exceptional care to remain objective. You indeed read the truth about Natalie's death. I would never have signed the publishing contract had Dennis not passed those polygraphs, and I can tell you, the expert we used had NO DOUBT about Dennis's honesty. He put Dennis through the wringer, and he asked questions in all different ways to make sure Dennis couldn't put a spin on anything. I never doubted Dennis, but those tests were the make it or break it point for me.
ReplyDeleteI was reading some of Wagner's quotes. My God, this man is so self contained. He praises his wife, Jill, as being "100% for me". As was said here earlier, he's happy as a clam, a wonderful man, until things don't go his way. That he requires his mate to be 100% for him says a lot about him and his behavior the night Natalie died.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure he was enchanted by Natalie (who wouldn't be?) but she was his ticket to the big leagues. Exactly where he wanted to be for most of his life. He probably loved her in his sociopathic way, if that's possible. However, she became expendable when he saw her as a threat to everything he enjoyed in life, image, prestige, power. (irony here, it was all due to his association with Natalie) He must be very pleased now to have the perfect doormat wife and Natalie's money. Jill, I have no respect for you, but sleep with one eye open anyway.
ReplyDeleteand in his book he mentioned Jill, he praised her etc, but Natalie in discussed in nearly every chapter to the point that it seemed as if he was using her? But when it came time to name the women who were special in his life, she was omitted. He included the mother who shipped him off to boarding schools but he omitted the woman who saved his butt when he hit rock bottom, financially, the woman he married twice, the woman who he claimed was his first great love, that was until he invented the affair with Barbara Stanwyck to cover up his "bachelor" years.
ReplyDeleteWagner really did want Natalie to die. All of the stupid talk these past 29 years, and all of those ridiculous excuses from others about why he waited so long to call for help. The very sad truth is, the man was waiting for his wife to die; He was waiting for Natalie's lips to go dumb. That is really mind-blowing, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteThere is a great movie called "The Little Foxes." It's from a play written by Lillian Hellman. In the movie, Bette Davis' character, Regina, is talking with her sick husband when he starts to have very serious chest pains. He asks her to get his medicine. She realizes that if he dies all of her current problems will be solved, and she will be set financially. She sits and waits and does nothing. Her husband tries to crawl up the stairs for his pills. The camera stays on Davis' face, which is frozen in stunned disbelief at what she is doing (while she listens to her husband's struggle to stay alive). It's a powerful scene, and it's movie making at its best. The husband eventually dies.
Wagner did the same thing; He sat and waited and did nothing, and Natalie eventually died.
Unfortuantely, Natalie's struggle lasted a lot longer than a few minutes in a movie. Wagner waited hours. He knew better than anyone about her fear of dark water. He knew she must have been suffering something awful in that dark, cold ocean, but he just sat there and drank and waited.
Do you realize how much time he let go by while Natalie floated helplessly in that water? That is torturing someone beyond belief. He didn't know at what point Natalie would die. He was willing to wait--to wait as long as he thought it might take.
Kevin, the scene you described is cringe-worthy accurate.
ReplyDeleteAnd that scene, every time I replay it my head, is what keeps me going with this case. The scene you described is untenable.
The other horrid part of it is that he insisted Dennis wait with him, urging Dennis to drink-up ("what else was there to do?")
Constantly, Dennis would suggest they do something different (like make a call...turn on the searchlight, etc). It was obvious she wasn't coming back (remember, Dennis at this confusing point hoped and believed she was in the dinghy...not a good situation for Natalie, but a safer one).
Wagner kept refusing, explaining how he couldn't draw attention to the situation, that he needed to protect his image. Dennis understood, to a certain point, as he knew how much the Wagners valued their privacy, so he bought it. He didn't want to be the one who exposed the terrible argument, so he waited, and waited, and waited. By 2 AM, Dennis practically demanded Wagner make the call or that he would. Wagner stalled him another half hour then made that lame local frequency call. Dennis says he looked so disappointed when someone responded. Maybe she wasn't dead yet, and that wouldn't work, would it?
If someone, anyone, was missing from my boat in the dark of night the first thing I would do is turn on the lights. It should have been the first thing he did, instinctively. It was Dennis' first instinct, it would have been anyone's first thought. Why wasn't it Wagner's first thought? Why would he NOT allow it? What would have been the big deal? If it was one of his kids, would he have not turned on the light? And that privacy crap is BS! You mean to tell me he never turned on the lights at night?
ReplyDeleteMarti, ask Dennis if there have ever been any other emergencies on The Splendour and if RJ was ever so hesitant to act on them? Had he ever turned on the lights or made such a big deal about turning on the lights?
ReplyDeleteAlso, ask Dennis if he saw or heard RJ on the telephone that night. In my reading about this case, I noted that he made a few calls.
I can only imagine the emotional state of mind I would be in after discovering I had been hoodwinked by Wagner. Hoodwinked into sitting and drinking and doing absolutely nothing while a dear friend was losing her life just yards from where I was sitting.
ReplyDeleteAfterwards, realizing how easy it could have been to save her. That has to be devastating to experience.
There are some people who refuse to comprehend the situation Dennis was in. They say things such as he should've overpowered Wagner that night (which is ridiculous). Dennis didn't have that kind of authority. He was "skipper" not the the boss. He didn't know the grave situation Natalie was in until it was too late. He TRUSTED Wagner, as he always had. I have drummed this into Dennis because the pain of the tragedy almost killed him. He truly suffered the agony any decent person would feel in this exact situation. He could have saved Natalie and knows it, but while under Wagner's thumb for those hours, he DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY what Natalie needed saving from. He trusted in someone he believed he could trust. Imagine how Dennis must have felt the morning Natalie was found? How confused, angry, shocked, griving, you name it: he was mute because he was living a surreal experience and it froze him for far too long. I never saw a transformation in a person the likes of what I witnessed firsthand in Dennis. Terminal cancer victims I've known transformed at a slower rate. Dennis was DESTROYED: mentally, physically, emotionally. This was awful to watch happen to a friend over his undeserved self-appointed guilt. There was no way to turn back the clock, and for a while, almost no way to move forward beyond the tragedy for Dennis. He was dying and I saw it....the truth would've died with him. Thank God he moved in with me and my husband. We truly helped him to renew himself. To this day, Dennis SUFFERS this horrible tragedy. Difference is, he now knows where to place the true blame. But still, it's so difficult for him to know that he should've done more. Put yourself in those shoes and it's a real tough place to be. I despise the kind of comments that suggest we've embellished this tragedy for a book, from people who either like controversy or can't get their heads out of fanhood to realize the grave implications of that night. My God, a woman died one of the most torturous deaths imaginable. To blame the young, carefree, INNOCENT bystander is revolting, especially when the person responsible has basically admitted his culpability.
ReplyDeleteIt sickens me the way Wagner has done all he can to discredit Lana and Dennis, the two people who threaten his way of life.
ReplyDeleteBut he has not discredited them, not really. Every time he opens his mouth about the night Natalie died, his discredits himself with his contradiction.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, your average Joe isn't keeping track of the lies Wagner has told. Nor is the media. So, I think Lana and Dennis can point to tangible ways that Wagner has negatively impacted their lives. He, however, skates merrily along, his life intact, enjoying the fruit of Natalie's labor and the adulation of the drooling idiots who worship their false idol.
ReplyDeletePeople can make a difference. We must all tell everyone to pass along there is an actor who got away with the worst ... let his name be attached to what it belongs to be attached to.
ReplyDeleteAs Marti said in her book, it will be people, us regular joes who will define Natalie's death.
Can I just throw something out there without being accused of sympathizing with the enemy or being someone I am not?
ReplyDeleteWhat if RJ and Natalie's argument as written did escalate onto the deck and he did tell her to "Get the **** off my boat!" and he turned away and went back inside never believing that she would actually make an attempt to do it or as RJ was intoxicated at the time, he didn't care. Something he never would have done if sober. Could this be the guilt he has carried with him all these years? The guilt he has told his daughters and they have forgiven him and taken a life long vow of silence? The guilt which he publicly blames himself for Natalie's death?
I am speaking of this only. I am not talking about anything before or after these events and how he has handled his life since then. I've read Marti's book three times and I believe every single word she has written but something is missing. I can't put my finger on it but it's like the perfect recipe that one ingredient was left out. It is fine but it just needed that something else and I think the something else in this case is Dennis Davern who is holding back a detail.
No, that dosen't make any sense. Dennis said that he turned the music off and went directly to the back of the boat where he surprized Wagner--who was still standing there. He also said that Wagner was sweating and disheveled looking. This was soon after the fighting ended.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Natalie Wood is not going anywhere out on the ocean by herself at night, and not in her nightgown. Remember, it was Wagner who was in a really bad state of mind, not Natalie. I can't see Natalie doing such a crazy thing. There was no where for her to go--no hotels or motels, nothing.
Sorry, the last night of Natalie's life is a night where no excuses can be made for Wagner.
Also, Wagner showed no concern for her the entire night after Natalie went missing.
ReplyDeleteWagner would(should)have been worried and tried to look for her. Remember, she never took the dinghy out before(by herself)and never at night. Natalie had a pathological fear of dark water. It is on record.
Also, where was she to go? There was nowhere for her to go.
Hey wait a moment! I am not making excuses for Robert Wagner. Please don't put words or thoughts in my mouth and head. It was just an idea I threw out there. It excuses no one. As for Dennis, I believe he is holding something back. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this. I believe he knows something more than he has told. That is all. If you don't, that is fine but to me it makes perfect sense. I am not stating this is what happened. I am stating what if this is how it happened.
ReplyDeleteWell, you just wrote a scenario where you have Wagner "never believing" Natalie would take the dinghy out by herself, but she really did. Did I miss something?
ReplyDeleteI don't know why I keep thinking about sunflowers this morning?
ReplyDeleteI see I am having words put into my mouth and placing them onto the electronic page and I've also noticed the dig toward me concerning the woman known as Sunfflower. Two 'FF's" in her spelling.
ReplyDeleteYou are miscontruing my post completely Kevinr and after your mishap on here of mistaken indenties over a simple upper font "R" as opposed to a lower case "r" just a few days ago I thought you of all people would be the last to wag an accusatory finger my way.
Let me be perfectly clear. I am not condoning Robert Wagner's actions. I was not there. All I am stating is perhaps in the intoxicated condition he was in he turned and went back inside leaving Natalie on the deck alone something he would not have done if he was sober. That is it. In this instance, he would be just as culpable in her death as if he placed her in the water with his own two hands.
Yes, I believe Dennis knows more than he is telling. Something or someone is stopping him from putting the last piece to this puzzle together. That is what I am saying. That is all. Do you understand that?
I am an avid supporter of this book and Marti Rulli and I am also one of her first log-in followers on this blog but because of the terror trolls who jumped from Amazon to IMDB to the Forum and trolled innocent people and their families I am posting as anonymous. Marti Rulli can surely check my IP and she will see at once I am on the level. Are you?
I was talking about sunflowers.
ReplyDeletePlease do not insult me or yourself for that matter. I know exactly what you were referring to and why you came back in to basically add an addendum to your previous post. Please let us drop this and move on and back to the book and respect others opinions even though they might not be the same opinions as yours or the ones you are looking for.
ReplyDeleteI completely understand the need for speculation concerning what occured on that back deck. But please rest assured that I have scrutinized Dennis over every detail, and he was asked by the polygraphist several times (hooked up to the machine) about how far his knowledge goes in every which way.
ReplyDeleteThe missing part of the puzzle is that Dennis didn't see how Natalie actually got into the water. If Dennis had seen that and held back I would certainly have no defense for him. But, he has been completely honest with what he did and did not see. Wagner never left Natalie alone on the deck and Dennis is quite certain of that, as he could see shadow images on the isinglass windows, and he heard voices, and BOTH Natalie and Wagner were on that deck. Dennis just couldn't hear most of what they said because of the music. Wagner was near the dinghy cleats when Dennis got to the deck, and if Natalie had disappeared, Wagner would certainly have wanted to do something to find her like any decent husband would. But he was nervous, upset, and wouldn't allow Dennis to do anything. He sent Dennis off to check the front of the boat.... he wanted Dennis away from the open deck, and Dennis believes now that's probably so Dennis wouldn't hear Natalie crying for help as Wagner most likely heard as witness Marilyn Wayne heard a man's voice answer her.
The missing piece is HOW Natalie got into the water. We all believe only Wagner can answer that one. HE'S the missing piece, not anything Dennis is holding back. But, I do appreciate constructive discussion in relation to anything to do with this case. We all continue to learn things about that terrible night. Now, knowing that Roger Smith was told by Wagner that Natalie was probably off "screwing around because that's the kind of woman she is" is more evidence that this was not a concerned husband that cared about finding his missing wife. It was a husband covering his involvement.
This person is proposing Wagner had nothing to do with Natalie entering the water. Rather, he suggested to her to get off his boat and left her alone. While alone, Natalie "attempted" to board the dinghy and fell and subsequently died.
ReplyDeleteIf that was the case, why didn't Wagner try to search for his wife. Why didn't he even make a call to have others search for her. Natalie did not know how to operate the dinghy and was terribly frightened of dark water. Again, Natalie would not do such a senseless thing. She was not the one who was in a disturbed state of mind. Wagner was.
What does this person have to say to backup that scenario?
Don't say I'm putting words in your mouth--give me reasons to counter the reasons I gave you.
It's a scenario that makes no sense whatsoever. Natalie was so terrified of water that it came up in almost every interview she ever did. No one with that kind of fear would have voluntarily jumped in the water. There was nothing on deck that could match her fear of the water, not even an enraged Wagner. My mother has a fear of heights and she will cling to a building away from the edge even though she is clearly in no danger. Those kind of deep-seated fears are not thrown off easily. Natalie had that Russian temper, she was more than a match for Wagner verbally. Physically? No. So being put into the water against her will speaks more to the facts than jumping into the terror of her life.
ReplyDeleteIf Natalie was going to leave the Splendour she would have had to go to get Dennis. Natalie did not know how to operate the dinghy. Just like the night before, she would have gone to get Dennis. However, there was no place to go. She was just minutes from going to bed. Does anyone really think she would have gotten into that dinghy (even after fighting with Wagner) by herself in her nightgown and socks and no underwear on? The night was cold and drizzly, and Natalie did not know how to start the dinghy--and where was she going to go?
ReplyDeleteAny husband who lost his wife accidentally would have had no problem remembering to dedicate her as an important woman in his life, and no new wife of a widower of an accidental death would've had a problem if he did. He is still angry with Natalie which justifies his deed in his mind. No, he had no time for a dedication to her in his book. He conveniently left her out. I wonder what his daughters really think of that.
ReplyDeleteWhy not just go back to the stateroom and lock him out? Wouldn't that make more sense to the poster than Natalie trying to board a dinghy she knew nothing about, in the cold dark night?
ReplyDeleteIf you think Wagner turned and left Natalie alone, then wouldn't the fight be over? Why would she need to go anywhere?
ReplyDeleteWagner telling Smith that Natalie was off "screwing around because that's the kind of woman she is" is more evidence that Wagner had a hand in Natalie's death. A lovely lie to make excuses for his not calling the United States Coast Guard for over 4 hours after Natalie went missing. Wagner would have done as much for a family pet. However, for his own wife he dosen't call the U.S. Coast Guard.
ReplyDeleteThat he could voice such a lie after learning of Natalie's death is very telling.
If I'm not mistaken, he told that to R. Smith when the coast guard arrived, not aftdr learning of Nat's death. Marti?
ReplyDeleteActually, I think Wagner said that before they told him Natalie was dead.
ReplyDeleteHow, though, he could say such a thing about the mother of his children at such a time? To cover his own ass, is how.
Yes, I just corrected myself. I think he said it before Natalie was found.
ReplyDeleteThat's why it is insulting to hear scenarios where Wagner is innocent. His actions and horrifying statements do not make any sense except in Dennis' version. If the poster's version was true, why has Wagner continued to slander Natalie all these years? His anger and resentment speak volumnes about what happened that night.
ReplyDeleteIt is insulting. Dennis makes it clear that Wagner was with Natalie until the moment she went missing. It dosen't take a genius to know what that means. It means Wagner knows exactly how Natalie ended up in the ocean. It means Wagner knew the entire night that Natalie was in the water..
ReplyDeleteWhen he made that statement to Smith...he knew.
No one here, with the exception of the Wagner fan flag waver who made reference to the powerful group, is saying that Wagner is innocent. We are throwing ideas around about how Natalie ended up in the water. I have never believed that he threw her in the water, but put her in the water, held her head under the water to weaken her? Maybe. Throwing her would have made too much noise. Her falling would have made noise but it's possible that he held his hand over her mouth and put her head under the water for just long enough to weaken her and then he walked away. Maybe he put her in the water to frighten her and came back and she was gone BUT the Wayne party heard a women cry for help. Is it possible that he put her in the water to frighten her, walked back into the stateroom, came out, saw she was gone and said "oh shit". Then Dennis saw him. It could have been in between that the Wayne party heard the screams and this would explain why she screamed "Help me, somebody, help me" rather than screaming for Wagner to help her. It would also explain why she did not paddle back to the boat. For all we know, Wagner may have heard her screams which explains the threatening letters his people sent to Marilyn Wayne and it also explains why HE never asked Wayne any questions about what she heard. I found that odd.
ReplyDeleteWe'll never know how she got in the water but Robert Wagner was there, his actions scream culpability, the extremely long wait to call ANYONE to search for her, not allowing Dennis to turn on the lights, not allowing Dennis is start to search around and under the boat, lying to the police about the broken glass. However you slice it, folks, he prevented her from being saved and allowed her to die. Even if he wanted to keep it quiet because of the publicity, all her had to do was go looking for her along with Dennis, search around the boat, under the boat, put his mind as ease! Instead, he sat and drank and concocted the stories that would be told to the police. He also made a statement through his PR people that he went looking for her in a Sea-Doo. There was no Sea-Doo on the boat that weekend. Another lie. Why did he lie about that? He lied because he knows that he SHOULD have gone looking for her using any means available along with notifying the Coast Guard. He knew what an innocent, concerned husband would have done and that's the picture he tried to paint.His supporters say that we are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. He did not have that. What he had was a wife who was petrified of water, unable to swim, a wife who NEVER went out alone at night in the dinghy and that wife was "missing" with no note, no hint of why she might be gone or where she could be, a wife who would have had to untie two lines in the dark, in the cold and he waited 4 hours to call for a professional search because he did not have the benefit of hindsight. OK.
Who is we? Only you are "throwing around" ideas about how she ended up in the water. Let's pretend he had no idea how she got in the water. Now what? No panic? No distress calls? She was here a minute ago and now? She isn't on the boat, why delay Dennis who does want to do something about it? Even in the innocent scenario he comes up stinking. So how she got into the water is irrelevant compared to why she wasn't fished out.
ReplyDeleteWell, that is not what Anonymous 7:15 AM today wrote. Anon. wrote that maybe Wagner's guilt comes from shouting at Natalie to get off of the boat and then, after leaving Natalie alone, she tried to board the dinghy and died accidentaly.
ReplyDeleteThat is far from what Wagner is actually guilty of.
Marti,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your in depth response. You have cleared much for me. Please don't take offense but have you thought of a website instead of this blog for your book? It appears that if one person states a single thing which is not in perfect accordance with others they are immediately labeled a traitor. That was certainly not my mission but this is the second time that has happened to me on here. Perhaps a website which can be closely monitored would be more appropriate for a fine book such as yours.
Kevinr,
I was not implying anything and you appear to be looking for discourse where there is none. I was just shooting another scenario out there which still leads to the same conclussionary idea that Robert Wagner is culpable for Natalie's death. If you are that thin skinned you'd go picking straws to make your case, so be it. I can only assume that you thought I was a Wagner hawker with your Sunf(f)lower comment and now that you know differently you simply must attack for the sake of attack. Heaven forbid you should be marked as wrong. Never fear, I won't bother posting again so you may have the spotlight for what it is worth.
First of all, to address the original poster's comment about Wagner would never have left her on deck if he was sober. It has been well documented (including by Natasha) that Wagner is a very high functioning alcoholic. His drinking may make him more belligerent, but he does not cease to function. He had his wits about him that night when he released the dinghy and then played the waiting game while he tried to figure how long it would take Natalie to die. You say you want to throw out an idea for discussion, yet when people have discussed many reasons why your scenario couldn't be true, you offer no rebuttals. So, is this a real discussion, or just you throwing out ideas you want posted on this board?
ReplyDeleteI see no attacks from Kevin, except for the Sunnflower remark. Other than that, he stuck strictly to arguing facts. Again, was that not your reason for bringing this up? Discussion? Your hit and then run style does not gibe with your original intention. No one has labeled you a traitor, so now who is thin skinned? People are naturally on guard for Wagner fans but I have heard no one call you that. So what's the problem?
ReplyDelete"Only you are throwing around ideas". I have been posting on this blog since it's inception. The topic of how Natalie got in the water is one of the big topics on this blog and one of the big questions before the book was written. There are several people, including Marti, who have wondered aloud exactly how Natalie ended up in the water. As Marti stated, that's the only question that the book did not answer and for some, especially those of us who remember the day Natalie died, especially those of us who knew before the book was written how petrified Natalie was of being in the water, it a question of major importance, never irrelevant. I fully understand your point about the searching and I totally agree.
ReplyDeleteAnd, by the way, I am not the only person posting this afternoon. I am not the only "YOU". So that would be "WE".
Kevin, I am not referring to what anon 7:15 wrote.
ReplyDeleteI was not thinking of that. I am discussing my own feelings and ideas. What I posted has nothing to do with what anon 7:15 wrote. My feelings differ vastly from his/hers. I am just pointing out that we are all on the same wavelength. We all feel that Wagner is guilty in Natalie's death.
Now, that's an argument for bringing up how Natalie got in the water. See? discussion, no hurt feelings and no retreat. I don't agree with the idea of how she got in the water but you've given me a reason to listen.
ReplyDeleteAs for Wagner's ability to hold his liquor, what about the night that he threatened to jump out of the window in Hawaii? He was not a high functioning alcoholic that night. He was jealous and angry and drunk just as he was the night Natalie died. One may be able to hold their liquor very well when they are having a fun night on the town which was Natasha's experience with him but when he was drunk and angry, he lost control of his good sense and judgment. He did something that he normally would not do, threatening to jump out of a window. Being drunk and happy is very different from being drunk and angry.
ReplyDeleteTo Anon 5:10-How do you feel that she got in the water?
ReplyDeleteI think that comes under the heading of Drama Queen. If he truly intended to eject himself out the window, it would have been accomplished. I think Natalie's death proves he lacks both good sense and judgement. It doesn't make sense to differentiate between drunk and happy, and drunk and angry. They are equal states of inebriation. The only difference is the latter gives people and excuse and rationalization for their behavior.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think that Wagner dragged her overboard and put her in. It would make sense with the abrasion on her face and the possibility that the non-skin surface was imbedded there. That's the explanation that seems the most plausible to me.
ReplyDeletesorry, I meant to say, dragged her across the deck and then slipped her in.
ReplyDeleteI find it so ridiculous that Anon.4:33 says (and I'm pretty sure the person is a she--but I could be wrong) that she is just throwing another idea out there, but it still makes Wagner just as guilty. No, that is a completely different story from what actually happened (according to Dennis' account).
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm saying Wagner intentionally put Natalie into the water and left her to die. That is different from saying Wagner left Natalie alone and she accidentally slipped and fell into the water. You are saying Wagner wasn't there when Natalie went into the water, and that would imply he thought Natalie was in the dinghy. That is a completely different story.
No, Wagner was there when Natalie went into the water, and Wagner released the dinghy to make it appear that Natalie left of her own free will.
To the same Anon. Didn't you know that I'm never wrong?
ReplyDeleteExcuse me while I pull my tongue out of my cheek.
Damn, I meant non-skid surface not non-skin. I must be getting tired.
ReplyDeleteKevin, you have your anon. times wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think 4:33 and 7:15 are the same person???
ReplyDeleteNever mind, my computer has always put the wrong times. I knew you weren't addressing me by what you said. Also, the two times you left as the same person, on my computer one of them is you. So sorry, I will just try to focus on the content of what you are saying and then I will be sure of who you are talking to. My computer blows.
ReplyDeleteI know that he never intended to jump out the window, LOL, but that is something Robert Wagner would never have done while sober.
ReplyDeleteDennis does not know what actually happened. He does not know how Natalie got in the water.
Robert Wagner is as guilty as the day is long but we don't KNOW for certain that he threw her in the water. AND, IMO, nothing that happened that night was accidental.
No, not the same person.
ReplyDeleteHe was sober when he wanted to kill Warren Beatty. It was purely seredipity that saved Beatty not Wagner's sober good judgement.
ReplyDeleteWell, Natalie wasn't going into that water of her own volition. Wagner placed or threw Natalie, but he did put her in the water.
ReplyDeleteAlso, he was sober when he calculatingly "took care" of the photographer that snapped Niven. I maintain that sober or drunk he is the same malevolent personality. Wagner controls Wagner. Sober or drunk.
ReplyDeleteGood point!
ReplyDeleteFrom the facts and evidence (and they are FACTS and EVIDENCE) Dennis has given us, all we can do is surmise how Natalie got into the water. That's what detectives and prosecutors do (good ones, anyhow). All of the evidence points to Natalie NOT being responsible for ending up in the ocean that night.
ReplyDeleteShe was deathly afraid of water.
She was going nowhere on a dark, closed island.
She was not dressed to go anywhere.
She didn't know how to start the dinghy and if the dinghy had been started, everyone around the area would've heard it.
She first went out to the deck in ONLY her nightgown...NO COAT.
The arguing ensued on the open deck.
Wagner yelled, "Get off my fucking boat."
The dinghy was tied with two lines....adjustable from the deck...Natalie would not have untied ropes at cleats in the dark in the rain.
The boat's walls are too high and wide to actually fall over even if leaning against them.
She didn't get a facial abrasion AFTER being in the water.
She had bruises all along her ankles (as if pulled from that are of the body).
Wagner was with her when she went into the water. He never left the deck with the exception of the half minute Dennis heard the stateroom door on the deck open and shut.
With this information, it's easy to surmise that Natalie getting into the water was no accident. Did Wagner retrieve her coat when that door opened and closed? All of this information considered TOGETHER, leads to the logistics of someone other than Natalie being responsible for her being in the water. Who was with her? That would be my deduction, and any good prosecutor's deduction I would think. The LAW has to reopen this case, especially with all the new information provided.
I hate the waiting game, but we are still waiting for the go ahead. It will be soon.
All of Wagner's actions and words from the moment Natalie was "discovered" NOT on deck supports all of the above.
ReplyDeleteHe told Roger Smith she screwed around before the CG search started.
Wagner made up that story about Beatty. That never happened. There was so much in his book that was made up so that the reader would say "Oh poor RJ, he loved her so much, look what she drove him to do."
ReplyDeleteHe altered stories to suit the picture he was trying to draw. The man is a liar.
The man is a liar, but no one in their right mind would think that the Beatty story is a sympathetic one. I think it is true and Wagner is so clueless of how he is perceived that he gave no thought to telling it. The man continually gives us glimpses into his darkness. I think the Beatty story fits into his personal psychology of how he views the world. (Mostly as a victim, with people "doing things to him, or more tellingly, "making" him do things.)
ReplyDeleteThat comment Wagner made to Smith is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteRemember what happened earlier in the evening, Wagner picked up a wine bottle and smashed it onto the coffee table...In front of three witnesses. Along with his comment to Natalie to "Get off my fucking boat", this behavior very much supports Wagner getting violent with Natalie. He was in a state of rage.
ReplyDeleteI've already seen examples of how people feel sympathy for RJ because of the Beatty thing.....how his love for her drove him to that. It was all BS. Warren Beatty did not live in a house at that time. He lived in various hotels at that point of his life. The entire story is BS. The story about what he read in Dorothy Kilgallen's column was BS. Remember him saying that Kilgallen said that Natalie and Warren were together so much that they barely had time to eat? Wagner said that they were all in LA when he read that and how it hurt him. That's a outright lie. When that item appeared in Kilgallen's column, Natalie and Warren were in NY en-route to Cannes. Wagner was in Europe and already heavily involved with Marion. He is a pathetic liar who makes up stories to create sympathy. Poor RJ, he loved her so much. His book reeked of that. All of those "I loved her so much stories had a little slap at her contained in them.
ReplyDeleteKevin, you are absolutely right. He was in a drunken rage.
ReplyDeleteYes, RAGE being the dominant factor, not alcohol impairment. She could have fought off a drunk if he was so witless and impaired. One good kick should have done it. Make no mistake, she was fighting with a determined, outraged opponent.
ReplyDeleteI guess we it a nerve. Good! Think of what Natalie had to endure?
ReplyDeleteIf only the police had done their job and checked all three men for marks from head to toe.
ReplyDeleteWho doesn't take this book seriously besides Wagner fans? There have been no personal attacks here, just vigorous debate. I have seen nothing to merit Kevin ass status. However, the dust-up with Kevin recently, I do believe has emboldened Wagner fans to take another swipe at the blog under the guise of being misunderstood like Kevin was. Oh, there they go again, attacking. For the record, none of us got our "feelings out there" about anything but the case.
ReplyDeleteYes, that is exactly what is going on here. I should make myself perfectly clear. Because I said Wagner had some good qualities (referring to his relationsghips with his children) does not mean I have changed my beliefs about Wagner in relation to the weekend Natalie died. I still feel exactly as I have stated here today (and ever since I have started leaving comments here). Until Wagner comes forward to prove otherwise, I see absolutely no reason not to believe Dennis Davern's account. To me, it is the only plausible explanation.
ReplyDeleteYou have made yourself clear and if not Marti has vouched for your identity. It has though, opened the door for other "misunderstood" people to comment under that umbrella. I'm speaking in general not pointing to anyone today. So the other poster doesn't need to put me on the ass roster. However, your comment added nothing to the discussion except to attack Kevin.
ReplyDeleteThat comment was for the Wagner fans. I think that they thought I might have softened my views about Wagner and Natalie's death. I just want to reiterate that I have not. So, you can trust me.
ReplyDeleteToo bad we could not have a chat room of some kind, with Marti and maybe Dennis involved. I would want Marti to be in control to keep the Wagner fans at bay, if that's even possible.
ReplyDeleteThe post about the book not being taken seriously could have meant by the mainstream media? The blame for that lies totally on the publisher, IMO. That's their job to promote the book. Wagner did a heavy promo for his book. It's not that the media was standing in line waiting for Wagner to do a guest spot on their show, the publisher set up the guest spots. Maybe it's a good thing that Phoenix is no longer interested to publishing.
The reason I said it was Sunnflower (or Bixbygirl) is because of the response I got to my comment to her. She said don't put words in her head and mouth. I'm tired of this same response from them. I want to have a good debate about this, but all I ever get is the same thing. Give me reasons why you think it could have happened that way. I really want to know.
ReplyDeleteI also have a comment for the poster that said no wonder people don't take the book seriously. You claim we attack here, yet you launch one yourself. If you have read the other blogs you will know why people are so determined to keep this one civil and free of Wagner fans. The hate on the other blogs is palpable. I have tried to read them for opinions but the craziness and viciousness is too much for me. That's not what I want to be a part of. The people on this blog are very intelligent and the percentage of times we have unmasked a Wagner zealot is very high. Occasionally, we may miss the mark as was done with Kevin. Overall, the tone of this blog is civil and informed. No one has been battered on this blog today. When opinions are different, the person has many times to clarify or bolster that opinion. Dialogue will ensue, insults not so much. You should be honest and just say that you don't like our opinions of what happened that night. Not fire an unprovoked broadside at Kevin.
ReplyDeleteI do resent someone saying "well, it could have happened this way" when Dennis has stated exactly what he heard and saw. How could it happen that Wagner left Natalie alone when Dennis says he was with her until she went missing? If you are going to contradict Dennis you have to have some proof. You can't just say maybe.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with that because Dennis did not see or hear every moment that Natalie and RJ were in the stateroom or on the rear deck. If he did, we would know more than we do about exactly how Natalie ended up in the water. Dennis would be able to say "I know that he threw her in the water." He can't say that. RJ may very well have turned and stepped inside and come back out or he may very well have pushed her under the water. For all we know he could have taken a swing at her, she could have moved quickly to avoid his assault and fallen in the water, hit her face on the motor of the dinghy, become dazed. We don't know because Dennis does not know for certain how she got into the water because did not see it. Look at the jacket issue. Dennis thought that RJ put the jacket on her but he cannot say for sure. WHY? Because he did not see him put the jacket on her. No one is contradicting Dennis. Dennis has never said that he saw RJ throw Natalie or put Natalie in the water. He can't tell us why RJ went to get the jacket. She may have been cold and sent him to get her jacket. Dennis can't explain what appeared to be Natalie and RJ making up. That's how it looked to him but RJ may very well have been saying "You will not live to divorce me", in a somber tone. How can anyone have proof of something that they do not know for certain? And why don't we know for certain, because Dennis does not know for certain. I am not putting Dennis down, I have great respect for him. He could have had a written a trashy tell all, made up stories about Natalie and RJ, told the world that he had sexual relations with Natalie Wood. He did none of that. He took the high road and I commend him for that. Dennis Davern cares more about how Natalie is remembered than her own family does. None of that changes the fact that he did not see exactly how Natalie ended up in the water. I wish he had seen it, more than I can tell you.
ReplyDeleteIn court, he would be asked what he heard and saw, suppositions would not matter to a judge and jury. Dennis can place him on the rear deck but he cannot tell a judge and jury what RJ's every move was because he did not see RJ's every move. There is only one person who KNOWS how Natalie lost her grip on life, and that person is Robert Wagner.
But, we do know that Wagner was with Natalie up until she went missing.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, Wagner never mentioned to police he was with Natalie, or that they were fighting. Right there we have a man who has lied. Why?
Next, why didn't he (for God's sake) call for help? Why did he wait 4 hours to call the CG?
This is not a discussion board for debate about what could have happened to Natalie. This is Marti Rulli's blog about what DID happen to Natalie. Marti does not have to tolerate those who cannot or will not see the truth of what happened because of false idol worship or other emotional disorders. There does exist a forum for such debate, this is not it. At this point, our common interest and goal is to have official reinvestigation of this case and to get justice for dear Natalie. So please dont waste our time or space here with nonsensical conjecture.
ReplyDeleteShe didn't lose her grip on life, her hand was pried from it. It doesn't really matter if Dennis saw her go in the water, all of Wagner's decisions after that make no sense unless he wanted her dead. He did and any jury worth their salt would see that. People have been put away on far less evidence than is presented in this case. Putting together all that Marti has investigated and uncovered, the puzzle pieces fit together very well. Besides, any way you slice it, Natalie still ends up being dead. Lawyers lead the jury with facts, which this case has. It won't be hard for jurors to make the leap on what happened. At the very least, Natalie's reputation will be restored to her and the drunk story put to rest for good.
ReplyDeleteHe lied because he is guilty. Innocent husbands don't lie to the police about their own activity during the last hours of their wife's life. They tell the truth in hopes of finding out exactly what happened.
ReplyDeleteIMO, he waited to make sure she was dead.
anon 9:10, does it sound like anyone speaking here tonight worships Wagner? We are agreeing that he murdered his wife and lied to cover his tracks. The fact is that NO ONE saw Wagner push or throw Natalie in the water. Hell, no one saw Wagner strike Natalie. No one heard any slaps or punches. It's not worshiping, it's stating facts. It will be an up hill battle if the case is re-investigated. I'm sure Marti and Dennis know this.
Marti has been discussing the possibilities of what happened the night Natalie died since the first day of this blog. We are not debating. we are discussing.
If the investigation is reopened. the questions I raised will be asked.
If Marti wants this discussion to cease, it's her call but I don't see that happening because she has a great deal of confidence in what we do know for sure.
What possibilities has Marti been discussing? Dennis has already laid out the facts. You didn't address the comment to me but I have to say I have felt there were a few Wagnerphiles today. We're just gun shy to call people out because of the Kevin debacle.
ReplyDeleteI am a Wagnerplile? love that, by the way, but I have said that he is a liar, that he might have head Natalie's head under the water, that he killed her. Obviously you have never dealt with Wagner's fans. They don't say such things. They make excuses for him, some of them trash Natalie to build him up, others blame Natalie for her own death. Wagner fans never say that he killed her or that he did anything wrong. Wagner fans won't answer why he lied or admit that he did.
ReplyDeleteMarti introduced that talk about Natalie's death. In her words, we are here to discuss Natalie's death. That's what we are doing.
Actually, the Wagner fans of the last 4 months have smartened up a bit. On this blog they do condemn him so we will listen, then they slip in their propaganda in small ways. They always get caught. As the war changes, so does the enemies tactics. I wasn't calling you a Wagnerphile, I was talking in general. When I think someone is one, I will say it.
ReplyDeleteThis is a valid discussion here (except for the name-calling to Kevin who makes good sense in his comments). Yes, I am totally confident in the account presented in GNGS. The peripheral witnesses (Marilyn Wayne, Dr. Lyndon Taylor -- both moored near the Splendour that very night) have contributed vital information substantiating Dennis's polygraphed account. The water was calm, Natalie cried for help at the exact time Dennis played music. Lyndon, a Doctor of Non-Verbal Communication witnessed the rage building in Wagner. He claims Wagner's eyes were so glassed over that he feared for Natalie IN THE RESTAURANT! He heard no huge splash from the Splendour and he was within hearing distance on his deck from 11 to 11:30, but on the other side where cries for help would not have traveled. Marilyn's boat was right in front of the cries for help. (Please, no one, go into why she didn't dive into the water or call for help. Her own safety was at stake and she DID call for help.) Lyndon would've heard a splash had someone gone overboard from the deck. He's sure of it. He's an avid boater his entire lifetime. Then Roger Smith comes into the picture, AFTER GNGS is published, with staggering information.
ReplyDeleteALL OF THIS is evidence. Coupled with Dennis's eye and ear witness account, it's CONCRETE evidence that would lend to a very tight circumstantial evidence case. That means, with everything put together, a strong case points to Wagner having some kind of involvement in Natalie's "disappearnace."
The official investigation was sub-standard and that is easily proven now.
The importance of this blog is to discuss these things, but also to gather support in getting the case re-opened. That's the next goal. Judge and jury are far in the distance, if ever, but the goal now is to get the case looked at again ... to get it out there that Natalie was not a drunken woman trying to perform a boat task in her pajamas in the rain. As Lyn Taylor says, "That's HOGWASH!"
I practice the patience I know more than anyone that this thing requires. It doesn't seem fair that so many things interfere as we try to progress, but Dennis and I stand by every word in GNGS and are determined to make sure its importance in this case is recognized.
The media has hurt us in the past, but of recent has actually been very helpful and they will continue to be. I know it appears the media is not with us, but they are. They are in the wings.
Celebrity priviledge will always exist, and in this case seems to have prevailed, but that will change, too. The LA County Sheriff's Department should be ashamed of itself, and soon they will have to answer some questions. They will also have to ASK some question. We're willing to answer. Hopefully, Wagner and Walken will be called upon, too.
ReplyDeleteCharlie Sheen was just caught trashing a hotel room and frightened an escort he had in the room so badly that she locked herself in the bathroom and called 911. Sheen was on a family trip to see a Broadway play and his ex-wife and children were in a nearby room when this happened. He was drunk, unorderly, destructive, and non-compliant. What did the police ask him? "Do you want to go to a hospital or to jail?"
Imagine if YOU were caught in that destroyed hotel room? Imagine if YOU were standing on the boat deck of a trashed boat telling a Coast Guard Captain your wife was probably off screwing around as an excuse for not calling for help sooner? Roger Smith wanted this information out there immediately! He didn't get the opportunity until NOW, 29 years later! Sorry, this blows me away!
Sometimes we can see things so much more objectively than star-struck officials who don't want to be caught in a media frenzy. I've always felt it was the public's moral obligation to call upon the officials in Natalie's case. But I've also witnessed firsthand just how difficult a task that is to accomplish. I praise every one of you for posting at this justice-for-Natalie blog. It means more than you realize. And, as I said, some really important people are in the wings now waiting to become the liason between all of us and true justice for Natalie. Whatever else might interfere will still not stop this process. Delays have been annoying, but the effort is intact.
I agree with the poster who commented that Wagner's chasing Beatty down with a gun could NOT have happened as he tells it. The timing is impossible. Suzanne Finstad also wrote a Beatty biography, and there is NO WAY Wagner at that time could've been sitting outside Beatty's home. Beatty was not there, and I don't think Wagner was. Wagner created a small Splendour speedboat, too, that he claims he used to search for Natalie,. That little boat didn't exist. He created it. He creates a lot of things.
ReplyDeleteIf Wagner waited for Beatty with a gun, it is not as he told it. This is a lie to divert attention from Finstad's revelation about why the first marriage between Natalie and Wagner really ended. I have PROOF of this (can't elaborate, but I've never lied, and I won't start now).
Ok, that changes my mind. I couldn't figure out why he would lie about such a terrible story. It makes sense that you combat one inflammatory story with an equally outrageous story. Sort of a sleight of hand trick. Jeez, what a warped mind that man has. Who else would think that an attempted murder story was preferable to a revealing sexual one? If it's for sympathy it certainly backfired with people like me. It just made me wonder what else he was capable of.
ReplyDeleteFunny thing about the Beatty story. I was listenting to Wagner being interviewed for "Pieces of My Heart," on the radio (via telephone) about a year ago. The host was talking about Wagner's great love for Natalie when he brought up the story about Beatty and the gun. He asked Wagner if he really would have done it. Wagner had to be reminded and asked "done what?" The host repeated himself "would you really have used the gun?" Wagner sounded almost surprized at the question and responded with an attitude of "are you kidding?" It was an awkward response.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to those who think that Natalie could have gone into the water if Wagner turned away. WHY? Remember, Natalie was not the one who was in an IRRATIONAL state of mind. Wagner was the one person on that boat who was acting irrationally the entire weekend. Natalie was not going to leave Splendour in her nightgown (whether she had a coat on or not). She had a pathologoical fear of dark water. You have to look at the other person she was with. The other person who was in a state of rage. The other person who screamed at her to get off of his ****ing boat. The other person who smashed a wine bottle in front of three witnesses. The other person who did not call the Coast Guard for over 4 hours. When you factor in all of these things there is only one logical conclusion; Wagner forced Natalie into the water.
ReplyDeleteThe ocean was cold and very dark that night. Physically, a body would recoil at the first touch of it. Mentally, a mind would freak after being shocked when landing in it, especially a mind deathly afraid of deep, dark water. Yet, Natalie gathered her wits and called for help.
ReplyDeleteHer cries for help were heard by THREE witnesses on another boat, not ONE, but THREE, and one of those witnesses is a super-wealthy businessman who has verified Marilyn Wayne's account. The other was a young boy with NO REASON to lie about having heard drowning cries for help. For people who insinuate (including lead detective Rasure) that Marilyn Wayne simply "wanted her 15 minutes of fame" out of this tragedy are not deep thinkers. Seriously, how much "fame" would Marilyn have accomplished? It's a ridiculous accusation that she just "wanted her name in the papers" like lead-detective Rasure said. What did John Payne want? He had everything and certainly didn't want HIS name in the papers. What did Marilyn's son want?
Rasure really messed up this case and now he claims Natalie was celebrating having learned to swim that weekend. This case infuriates me as much today as it did when Dennis first called me to say, "It was no accident."
No, it's highly doubtful Natalie would have emerged herself in the water when Wagner walked away. Nor would she have tried to get into the dinghy. We can surmise this because IT MAKES ZERO SENSE.
Wagner walked away for a brief few seconds, and then Natalie's coat became part of the scene. She was found wearing it. Dennis says, in the middle of a terrible fight, it isn't likely Natalie would say, "Go fetch my coat, I'm chilly."
But, that's hearsay (for those who don't know the difference). Dennis can only surmise WHY Natalie ended up with her coat on. He can't legally answer something like that based on things he learned about her from association and past conversations, unless those things are documented. We can establish Natalie's fear of water because we have her on film talking about it. There are exceptions to every rule, but previous ESTABLISHED fact CAN be used.
Wagner was WITH NATALIE WHEN SHE LEFT THE YACHT. Dennis SAW and HEARD that much, and that's damn plenty!
A case like this would entail putting the pieces of the puzzle together and comparing Wagner's account to Walken's account, Dennis's account to both their accounts, taking all the information into consideration, including every detail, large and small, that factors in. Good lawyers cold win on either side of it. Thirty years later, many people think it doesn't matter. But for the sake of true justice, for a woman labeled a drunk who fell off a boat, it should definitely matter. At least we all think so.
I do not feel that we are being unfair to Mr Wagner because his entire story to the police was a fabrication...His entire story. I don't think we are making unfair accusations. I don't think we are reaching. Mr Wagner let the public believe that Natalie was drunk and fell off of the boat trying to board a dinghy in her nightgown and socks.
ReplyDeleteMr Wagner showed no respect for his wife. It was his lying to the police, and the fact that he did nothing to help Natalie while she was helpless in the water, that make all of our comments justified.
Marti, there are some people of very limited intelligence who are assuming that you are saying that for Natalie's bruising to have been caused by Wagner, he would have to have punched her and caused her to bleed. Please clarify that you are not accusing him of punching her, that the bruising came from a confrontation in the stateroom and on the deck, that such bruising need not be caused by punching and slapping. Obviously, if he punched her, he would have caused more obvious bruising. Not all domestic assaults involve punching and slapping. Please clarify.
ReplyDeleteNatalie and Wagner were really going at each other in the stateroom. What Dennis heard consisted of things hitting the walls, screaming, and general commotion. It got so bad he knocked on the door, but he did not see Natalie. Maybe she went into their private head. But then, Dennis went to the bridge right above the back deck and that's when the terrible fighting broke out to the open deck. Natalie could've fallen a few times while arguing, been pushed, been HELD tightly, etc. Her type of bruising is consitent with domestic violence in general.... slapping and pushing at each other. The abrasions are consistent with a scraping of some sort... a couple of her bruises were more than 4 inches long! She had scratches at her ankles and many bruises near her ankles. This indicates definite physical contact, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was full blown punches. Hers were "superficial" bruising...black and blue marks, non-bleeding.
ReplyDeleteIt's too bad that Dennis' interruption didn't break the momentum of the fight. Wagner could have stormed off and stewed up on deck. Natalie would have lived another day to divorce him.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Marti. The police were curious about the bruising but not curious enough to check the three men for marks, scratches etc. That should have been done BEFORE Wagner was escorted off the island. I recall on one of the newscasts back in the day, Wilson said "All three men were checked for marks." Either he is lying so that the public and press would not ask any further questions or he was lied to by Rasure and Salerno. The bruising was not discussed on the newscasts. It was hushed up.
ReplyDeleteMany people should hang there heads in shame for their part in this miscarriage of justice. Wagner isn't the only one who will be villified when the truth comes out (yes, I'm talking to you Rasure. Marti gave you the chance to rectify your mistakes. The coroner will also look like a hack.) Add to that, the media that looked the other way, friends who knew something wasn't right and didn't speak up and . . drumroll please,.. the LACSD. They know the movement on this case yet they still pretend to ignore it and stick their head in the sand. I thought justice was their business but clearly not so. You all had the chance to save your reputations and now time has run out. At last, Marti will be the definer of this case and rightfully, have the last word.
ReplyDeleteAnd the above post is now copied and will be presented to the media. It a beautiful sum-up of the neglect in this case. Thank you!
ReplyDelete"At last, Marti will be the definer of this case and rightfully, have the last word."
ReplyDeleteSo is this what this blog and the book and all these posts are about? I was under the assumption that it was justice for Natalie Wood but clearly I was wrong.
Marti will have the last word in acquiring the ONLY justice Natalie will ever have.
ReplyDeleteYes, don't quote me and then put your own twist on the words. It is about justice and nothing but that. It is Marti who has had to step up and define the case because there was no damn case thanks to those mentioned above. The last word is JUSTICE. That would never have happened if not for all of Marti's hard work. You are free to criticize my writing. I will be the first one to admit that it was just a rant off the top of my head, nothing eloquent or polished. I don't think the meaning of my words escaped you, the ladle with which you stir the pot is annoyingly clear.
ReplyDeleteSure thing. Whatever you say. Doesn't matter anyway because the truth gets deleted like this one will while the **** gets piled higher and higher with each anonymous post.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2:54 in regards to both your posts. Go somewhere else. Stay away from my blog. Harrassing my blog and the decent people who post at it will not be tolerated. Look at my next post...it is an article defining what constitutes Internet CRIME, what is acceptable and what is not. Your posts are not acceptable, especially since I am clearly asking you to not post here again. No one hear is posting anything for you. For those who choose to not accept what we talk about at this blog, change your own channel. You are free to do that. You are NOT free to harass my blog with your gibberish and insults. I will make certain of it.
ReplyDeleteThese constant attacks are always a mystery to me. Everyone here can wield words with enormous precision. We are able to detect their sneakiest of attacks and dispatch them with a few well-turned phrases. It is amazing to me that they continue to poke sticks at the articulate, retaliating bear. They are the very definition of insanity. They keep doing the same thing but expecting different results. Give it a rest, people.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous poster criticizes others for posting anonymously...funny.
ReplyDeleteOften I have wondered what would've happened if Dennis had insisted on seeing or talking to Natalie when he knocked on their door? Like someone suggested, maybe a long enough interruption would've taken much of the fury out of the scene. We will never know.
The scenario in which Wagner simply went back to the stateroom and then Natalie went off the boat doesn't make sense, for reasons already mentioned by others.
It should be abundantly clear to a critical thinker that Wagner put Natalie in the water--exactly how, we will likely never know. This is also suggested by the report that Natalie yelled out for "somebody" to help her. This is very telling. Why didn't she call out specifically for her husband? It's because she knew help wasn't coming from him. He wanted her dead--and he made sure of it, in many ways.
I've often thought about how Wagner was so enraged that he would do this and knowingly let her die. This really can't be blamed solely on alcohol, either, because Wagner had the presence of mind to untie the dinghy to make it look like Natalie took it. He had the presence of mind to pressure Dennis to drink with him, to pressure him NOT to look for her, to send Dennis forward to the guest staterooms, to put on an act when authorities arrived, etc.
He calculatingly did ALL of this--as Marti questioned before, how long in advance does a person have to practice "pre-meditation?" A few hours? A few minutes? I think it's clear what Wagner's intent had turned into when he yelled, "Get off my f------ boat!"
Marianne,
ReplyDeleteI wish Dennis had insisted on talking with Natalie when he knocked on their stateroom door, too. Even when I put myself in his shoes (or try to) that moment could've been a crucial turning point--either way. But it was when Dennis was under hypnosis, and the doctor took him to that moment. The manner in which Dennis yelled out "Go away...get out of here!" (reinacting Wagner's tone) was chilling. Then, I totally comprehended. Wagner had been so angry he had taken an aggravated tone with Dennis. Since Dennis didn't hear Natalie, he probably didn't want to stir it back up, but how sad that the worst of it hadn't even begun.