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A place to update and discuss facts surrounding the controversial, tragic death of legendary Hollywood film actress, wife and mother, Natalie Wood who drowned mysteriously Nov. 29, 1981 off Catalina Island. Thank you for visiting.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011

The question the authorities need to investigate: How did Natalie get into the water?

I've been having a FB discussion with a new reader who left a review at Amazon. Rebecca's amazement over William Holden's and Natalie's deaths occuring so close together is understandable. Rebecca and I (as many of us do) totally believe Stefanie Powers had NOTHING to do with Holden's death, but Rebecca suggested something I've often thought about. Did Holden's death factor into Wagner's mind? Did Holden's death in any way (in a sociopathic mode) help Wagner feel easier/justified in handling letting Natalie drown?


Rebecca and I discussed Wagner's book "Pieces of My Heart" and Rebecca noticed (and had the same reaction many probably wondered about) that Wagner titled two chapters rather shockingly:  (1) That Cunt Will Never Work in My Studio Again - with a glamour shot of Natalie under the caption.
Rebecca says "Sure, you read on and it was a comment made about Judy Garland but what purpose did this serve? Would you want a caption like that over a picture of your dead wife? Didn't he think his daughter's might read the book? And I am speechless about the Chapter Titled..."

(2) "... I Have a Frozen Cock - regarding David Niven. What grown men would be in a bathroom staring at Niven's penis in a brandy Snifter? Seriously! This is out of Wagner's book! Doesn't anyone else find this absolutely bizzare? He actually discusses how his friends like to use certain drugs when having oral sex. Not only are these comments in really bad taste - for a "doting" father or three girls, wouldn't he be embarrassed to have them read about this?"

Rebecca's questions are valid. Wagner's book is more than a book. In my opinion, it is additional evidence toward his attitude and silence about Natalie's death. There are many subliminal, revealing words in "Pieces" including Wagner saying he is responsible for Natalie's death. Are those words said in a confession manner? With remorse? Guilt release? Or possibly with sick pride?

Rebecca says: "The guy has issues and these are not the topics one would expect in a sappy book titled "Pieces of My Heart". He is clearly stunted in his emotional development. I have a grown son and he would never talk like Wagner."

Rebecca also had a lot of questions about the amount of drinking that transpired during Natalie's last cruise...I explained to Rebecca that Natalie had drunk a little more than usual, but Dennis says she was her normal, socializing self. It was Wagner who kept pouring down the hard stuff. Natalie had sipped a lot of wine, but not to the point of not being in control of herself.

And, as most people do, Rebecca created a scenario in her mind, using pieces of evidence to answer the question: How did Natalie get into the water?  It's what we all want to know but, what I appreciate about Rebecca's scenario is that she uses the facts provided in a logical manner. Here's Rebecca's compelling thoughts after finishing GNGS:

I think there was a struggle. The only thing I can't wrap my head around is, wouldn't her actually falling off the boat sobered him up? Wouldn't his natural instinct be to rescue her? Is it possible that he thought he killed her (strangulation) and then laid her to rest gently in the water? That's when the cold water might have brought her to consciousness and she started screaming for help. I guess so many scenerios could have occurred. I bet the argument was about Chris and him not wanting her to go back on to the film. She probably stood her ground and he lashed out. But all of this is conjecture.


Now that I have seen the boat diagram (from blog) and looked more closely at the autopsy photos, here is what I think happened. There is a violent fight in the cabin. Natalie tries to fight him off. She tries to flee into the salon but he grabs her.


Dennis heard Wagner yelling "get off this f-ing boat". Wagner is right-handed and that is why there are lacerations on the left side of her face. Wagner drags her by her right arm (hence the bruising on the front of her right wrist and forearm). Next thing they are on the back deck yelling. Wagner is fumbling with the dingy. Natalie is frightened and she tries to pull away. Wagner grabs her tighter. There is a struggle. He loosens his grip because he needs both hands to untie the dingy. She falls backward on the deck- kicking with her legs- pushing herself away from the swim step and the dingy. He right leg is stronger and you see more laceration on her right ankle and back of her right leg from the sandy coating on the deck. Natalie isn't going anywhere near the water or the dingy. At this point I doubt she had any socks or the down jacket. I doubt she was thinking about comfort plus the scratches on her ankle couldn't really be noticeable if she had socks on and the right sock would have fallen off if that was the case. Natalie manages to escape RJ momentarily as she crawls toward the master bedroom- getting bruises and scratches on he lower legs. She heads back to the master stateroom. Now the dingy is probably still secured by one line. There is no turning back now for Wagner. He knows from the look in her eye that their marriage is over. She'll never forgive him now and maybe she says as such. She tries to scream for help and is running away from him. He grabs her from behind and puts his hand over her mouth to muffle the screams (bruising to her nose and left side of her face)- Wagner is right-handed. She has consumed alcohol (.14 was over the legal limit of .10) and two capsules- of sleeping pills. So she has very little strength now. The dingy is still there, he quickly dresses Wood as if she was leaving. He is drunk and panicking. He puts on her red down jacket and a pair of socks to cover her scratches and bruises. She is semi-conscious. He tries to push her into the dingy knowing she'll totally panic but the dingy isn't steady because he released one of the lines and she falls into the water. She is disoriented and panicking. She comes out of the water gasping for air and pleading for help. Wagner says mockingly "We'll come and get you". She momentarily stops screaming until she realizes that she is floating away due to the down jacket's bouyancy. Wagner has to make a decision- save her or let her drown.

He just wants her to stop screaming.


Dennis approaches him at this point and Dennis knows that something is seriously wrong. It is only in hindsight that he knows she drowned. The search inside the yacht is to buy time for Wagner. He can't let Natalie live now. If he can't have her (and she would leave him) no one can.


She may have said some unforgiveable things in her anger. Things that Wagner still remembers to this day. They wouldn't have been kind words. That's why he put that revolting caption over her photo "That Cunt Will Never Work At My Studio Again". He pretended he was referencing Judy Garland but the message is clear. Natalie was a cunt in his view. He can't justify killing her if she wasn't.



207 comments:

  1. Wow...seems pretty probable to me. That scenario is pretty scary but seems very possible.

    I've never read Wagner's book. I despise the man, but I agree with Rebecca and Marti, why would he put that above a picture of his wife. That is so mean and disrespectful. If he loved her, like he said, then "why".

    I bet his daughters know what an idiot he is....like the rest of us.

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  2. Marti, those captions are one reason I didn't read his book they made me sick. Wagner killed Natalie, but on some of Rebecca thinking, I just don't see it happening to much time the socks him putting them on her, I know the jacket was brought out a few mins later. I just don't know, I believe yes he hit her and put her in the water. Maybe I'm not reading what she wrote right. Just my thoughts. Pam

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  3. If Natalie was my mother I would have been pissed if her picture was aligned with that caption. PISSED! We know that it was not a reference to her but it's highly disrespectful. To the person reading the book for the first time it looks like the words are a reference to her. Personally, I doubt that the conversation he recalled in that chapter ever happened. I believe that Jack Warner said those words about Judy Garland but I don't believe he said them to Robert Wagner. It's probably something Wagner and his ghost writer Scott Eyman read in another book or article and put Wagner in the shoes of the person Warner said those words to. There was a lot of that in Wagner's book.

    We'll never know how Natalie got into the water. I'm sure many of us have thought of our own ideas of how it could have happened. My feeling is that however it happened, Robert Wagner was there. He knew where she was and how she got there. He was with her on that back deck until she was no longer on that back deck and he has been lying about it for close to 30 years. He's protecting himself.
    There was not evidence of strangulation. That would have shown up in the autopsy. I don't believe he punched her but I do believe he was violent with her, throwing things, pulling her, dragging her, putting her where he wanted her to be. He wanted her in the water. Why on earth would he wait so long to call for help if he was not directly involved in the hows and whys of her being in the water? He was a boater most of his life, he knew that the single most important factor when someone is missing from a boat is time, especially when the person is not a swimmer and afraid of deep, dark water is TIME. He let 4 hours of valuable time go by so that she could not live to tell what happened to her on that boat.

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  4. I don't think strangulation was involved either, but maybe Natalie passed out briefly, otherwise she would've been kicking and screaming like crazy going into that water she so feared! What I like about Rebecca's take on the whole thing is that she's using her head, comparing bruises on Natalie's body having to be made by a right handed person (her husband), and basically matching up what's available. It's the kind of investigating those detectives should have done, then maybe we would've had accurate answers for Natalie's multiple bruises. Didn't she have scratches at her neck also? Noguchi got several things wrong so maybe Rebecca's not so off.

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  5. I totally forgot about the penis in a cocktail glass. I guess Wagner was telling another of his favorite/funny anecdotes, but am I the only one who didn't laugh at this. Now being reminded of it, I think I was aghast when I read it. What is Wrong with these celebrities? Sounds like something Charlie Sheen would've found funny, I wonder how he and RJ got along on the set of Two and a half Men???

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  6. Noguchi did not do the autopsy. He signed his name to it as he was the boss but he did not physically do the actual autopsy.

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  7. Wagner's book was vulgar. It's not what one would expect from "Jonathan Hart". Obviously, he is nothing like the character his fans seem to want him to be, not at all.

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  8. The police wondered about the bruises but that's as far as it went. The case was closed before they did anything to find out the source of the bruising. Top notch investigation, right? Accidental drowning, right?

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  9. I don't think there is any question that Wagner was involved in something sinister when Dennis came upon him that evening. From Dennis' description, Wagner was panting, sweating and disheveled looking...he was not relaxing inside the salon while Natlie accidentally fell off of the boat.

    It is very possible that Wagner put Natalie's coat on her when she was not conscious. Dennis said that when Wagner got Natalie's coat, he didn't hear Natalie screaming anymore--or Wagner for that matter. Wagner may have been dressing Natalie in her coat as a cover for his actions.

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  10. What caused the unconsciousness?
    Maybe he gave her the Darvon pill when she was semi-conscious in order to cause her to become drowsy? The pill was not in her system long enough to have been digested.

    Something else I thought was odd was that Wagner never said to Dennis, "Where could she be?" He never said "I'm worried." He's never mentioned their children. If your spouse is in danger and you have small children, one wonders aloud about how the kids would feel if any thing happened to their Mom or Dad. If you are a parent, you'll understand what I am trying to say. His thoughts and his words seemed to be all about him. The only exception was "She's gone". What did he mean by "gone"? Gone could have meant that she was missing but Dennis knew that and given that he was emotional when he said it, he must have meant, "she's dead". And the emotional proclamation of "she's gone" did not cause him to decide to call the Coast Guard. That "she's gone" proclamation tells me that he knew that she was in the water and would not survive. He waited hours to make sure of that.

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  11. Maybe I'm old fashioned...but I can not, for the life of me, imagine myself doing such a thing to the person I 'love'. But then again, I'm not an eccentric alcoholic man-child with some severe anger issues and an iffy career.

    Now that the steam has blown, I must confess that everyone's scenarios seem very plausible, and that I'm in agreement with the origional. Though we'll never know, this one appears to have the most accurate background.

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  12. One correction, she did not take 2 sleeping pills. The only pills in her system were the Darvon, which is a pain pill and the Sea sickness pill. Both were undigested at the time of the autopsy.

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  13. HSP123, you are not old fashioned, most of us could not fathom doing such a horrible thing to anyone. The "man-child" fits him to a T.

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  14. When the Marilyn Wayne story was reported on the news it was said that the response "We're coming to get you" did not come from the direction of The Splendour but from a boat called The Vantage. The police discounted Wayne and therefore never questioned the occupants of The Vantage. Earlier that the owners of The Vantage had invited the Wagner party to their boat for drinks.

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  15. Never heard that before.

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  16. Did the police question Wayne?

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  17. I think the police wanted Wayne to go away. They did not seem to want to hear what she had to say.

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  18. Rebecca Howell

    Thanks for the comments and I would love to hear other scenerios. Not that I liked writing it. I just sense that everyone wants answers and that was the best I could do based on the information I've read and the photos I've seen. In a way, even this made up story kind of makes me feel better. Like I can see her and understand her. Maybe we all want some answer and the what if's and where for's are just too mind-boggling.

    30 years have gone by. I haven't really ever tried to unravel this mystery until now. I was 16 when she drowned and a big fan but like most people thought how horrible. It is only now that I questioned it. Don't know why. Something told me to read about this and I got Marti's book.
    The anniversary of her death is coming up. If you believe in ghosts- I believe that Natalie wants it to be known. Marti is her voice and I commend her for continuing when so many people would have just gotten frustrated.
    I think the main thing is that Natalie (if you believe in spirits and I do) wants people to know that she wasn't a silly drunk. She wants people to know that she was taken from her children and her life.
    My Mom is was born September 20, 1938. She is a beautiful 72 year old woman living a full and rewarding life with three grown daughters and two grand sons. She and Natalie would have been the same age if Natalie was still alive today. So in a sense, Natalie could be my own mother. I would have lost my own mother when I was 16 if that was the case- think how that would have changed me life. No mother at my wedding. No mother at the birth of my sons. No mother to guide me through my difficult teens and wave me off to college. All those things we take for granted. Stolen.

    But on a positive note- she does live on in her movies. Miracle on 34th Street and West Side Story are timeless treasures to me. I own them both and they have aways been two of my favorite movies. In fact, my son asked me my favorite song and without missing a beat I said "Maria"- it really is such a beautiful song and she is "Maria".

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  19. Rebecca Howell

    I forgot to mention that someone can be smothered and there would be no marks to indicate this. All you have to do is cover someones mouth and nose for long enough and they would lose consciousness. So she didn't have to be strangled. But there is still a mark on her neck in the autopsy picture that I can read. I think it says "fresh".

    I am sure many of you have studied this case more intensely. If there are any insights- please relay them because there may be things that are staring us in the face and we haven't noticed.

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  20. Thanks for all the comments. I've been away from the blog today, but before I turn in want to say a few things...First, thank you Rebecca for reading GNGS and for having such a concerned interest. It is true that Natalie's daughters missed out on the wonderful things I'm glad you were able to experience with your mother. That's an excellent point: her daughters had that opportunity stolen from them. We think about them often, even though this information must hurt them terribly.

    Also, the Vantage party was questionsed: it's in the police report that the man from the Vantage called the Splendour around 11 PM to invite the Wagners over for a cocktail. He told the police he heard arguing in the background. Now, as much as that is another substantiation of Dennis's truth, Dennis says that it would've been impossible for that phone call to have come to the Splendour. While Natalie and RJ argued, they were in the stateroom. A phone call would've had to go through the wheelhouse radio, and Dennis has no recollection whatsoever of that phone call coming in from the Vantage. Dennis says there was no break from the arguing after the bottle smashing...maybe the Vantage heard the arguing from boat to boat? It's another unanswered question.

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  21. Maybe he put a pillow over her face long enough to render semi-consciousness and then threw the pillow back into the stateroom. She was, however, alive and breathing in the water.

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  22. Did the police ask the people on the Vantage about the response Wayne heard coming from the direction of their boat?
    The police failed miserably.

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  23. I guess to simplify this case. A terrible argument ensued after the bottle breaking incident. I want to mention that breaking a wine bottle by slamming it down on a coffee table would take a tremendous about of force. That shows Wagner had the ability to smother or strangle Nat easily in the heat of passion.
    Long story short... jealous rage... never left Nat's side... now she's dead. He did it.

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  24. Of course none of these scenarios could ever be proved. We must'nt ever forget the concept of presumed innocent until found guilty. And don't call me a troll for pointing that out. I'm not a fan of anyone but I do believe in justice when it's served up fairly.

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  25. I've learned that a court of law doesn't always get the right answer--that has been proved time and time again. I've learned that a court of law doesn't always involve "justice served up fairly."

    I think we have come to some very educated conclusions over the last year, concerning Wagner and his involvement in Ms Wood's death.

    Mr Wagner's input would be greatly appreciated, but knowing the type of man he is I don't expect an appearance.

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  26. But justice was not "served up fairly" for Natalie and it's presumed innocent until proven guilty. That was not allowed to happen because Wagner was presumed innocent before the investigation began. Wagner lied to the police about his actions that night and they bought it. There was no justice in this case. Perhaps if Rasure had done a proper, thorough investigation Natalie would have been the recipient of the justice she so richly deserves and Wagner would be behind bars. You see there just too many holes in his story, too many things were left unexplained and un-investigated.

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  27. Yes, Kevin, I think we would all welcome Mr. Wagner's input but that won't happen unless it is forced on him and if that occurs more lies will, undoubtedly, be told as he seems to do it well. I recall that when he was asked what character he played was most like himself, he answered Alexander Mundy who was a charming con artist. The shoe fits.

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  28. Of course none of these scenarios could ever be proved.
    ^^^If the authorities did their job correctly and this case was reopened, possible several of these "scenarios" could very well come into fruition.
    We must'nt ever forget the concept of presumed innocent until found guilty.
    ^^^We are not in a court room here or reporting news where the word "ALLEGED" is crucial at all times even when the consensus remains otherwise so you "must'nt" forget that when reading and posting here.
    And don't call me a troll for pointing that out. I'm not a fan of anyone but I do believe in justice when it's served up fairly.
    ^^^That is certainly putting the horse before the proverbial cart wouldn't you say? Unless you have a personal agenda why would you feel the need to state that fact?

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  29. Anon 11:22, well said.

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  30. That sounds like the resident troll just making sure the horse is before the cart like the other poster said said. Sounds like they are just making sure their bases are covered. I didn't find anything wrong with their original post. It was just an opinion and Marti always welcomes opinions that are done resptful. Then I got to the part about don't call me a troll and I thought to myself here we go again.
    KT

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  31. Wagner told some big lies concerning the death of his wife. He said untrue things that degraded her name, and he did this to protect his own name and reputation--in spite of those things, Natalie Wood has become a Hollywood icon.

    I feel Wagner deserves everything said about him over this past year. I also think the things we have said about him--and his involvement in Natalie's death-- are very near the truth.

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  32. Kevinr I agree with you on everything no matter what the trolls or the Waggler fans say except for one minor thing. You said very near the truth. I think they are the truth.

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  33. Rebecca Howell

    You can only be held liable if something isn't true. I'd love to be sued for liable by Robert Wagner. That might be the only way to get him in a courtroom

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  34. Rebecca Howell

    In fact, if Lana wasn't broke-she could have sued him in a civil suit for the death of her sister.

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  35. Anon. 1:53, You are right!

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  36. He'll never sue. He'll never put himself in that position. If he was going to sue, he would have done so by now.

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  37. Why hasn't Willina Mae Worthern the maid come forward about any of this?

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  38. What would she know, she wasn't on the boat.

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  39. From a FB message Rebecca sent me, she mentioned how some people have asked how Natalie could have arm bruises if she was wearing the down jacket, which highly indicates she must have acquired the bruises BEFORE her coat was on her...or put on her.

    I explained to Rebecca...I am an amateur who figured out as much as I could...as we all speculate here on the things we don't know for sure. We DO USE the facts to base our theories. We use LOGIC and FACTS!

    No one is saying anyone is not innocent... but, with a witness (Dennis) who knows that Wagner was WITH Natalie when she went overboard... if Wagner refused to answer questions to authorities that would show the authorities he DOES have something to hide, and they would come on strong...IF they reopen the case....

    We amateurs do a good job...imagine what the professionals and forensic experts could do if they cared enough to do so!

    We are discussing logical scenarios here, and no one is claiming to be judge and jury, so whoever posted that little reminder, there's no need for it. We know our place and we are within every legal boundary to discuss what we are discussing. Wagner hasn't refuted ANYTHING in GNGS because TRUTH IS ITS OWN DEFENSE, and we CAN defend the truth in GNGS. It's Wagner who can't defend himself! Why? He's a liar! He's knows his legal limitations. And we know ours.

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  40. Who is Willina Mae Worthern the maid?

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  41. It's Willie Mae, she was the Wagner's Nanny and the housekeeper. Why would she "come forward" ? She was not on the boat that night. She has absolutely nothing to contribute, What an asinine comment!

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  42. The housekeeper and nanny.

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  43. Willina Mae Worthern was not the woman's name and she was not the maid.

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  44. Rebecca Howell

    Rebecca Howell

    Well- I'd like to hear what she said because it is all collateral damage. Most case are based on circumstantial evidence. In fact, eye witness accounts are not always credible (mistaken identity). When there is a dead body most people are convicted via circumstantial evidence. There are rarely witnesses to crimes. So if the maid saw a pattern of abuse, this would be damaging evidence. Or statements of marital strife. Wagner certainly seems like the type that says inappropriate things without thinking!

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  45. This is from my vast files and is just part of the columnist's story from People magazine 1983 and People magazine does not lie.

    After Losing Natalie Wood, Robert Wagner Talks About Raising Three Girls—His, Hers and Theirs—and Mending His Broken Heart
    For 19 months now—ever since Natalie Wood drowned at the age of 43—Robert Wagner has been raising his three girls, trying to help them remember their mother but forget the pain of losing her. Says his dear friend—and constant companion—Jill St. John: "I can't think of anyone who is more of a Superdad."

    But R.J.—as Natalie used to call him—says Natalie deserves most of the credit. "I was made a single father by a tremendous tragedy," he says, his strong voice suddenly quavering. "But one thing I was very fortunate about was that Natalie was a great mother. It's just a matter of sustaining the goodness and love she put there. Thank God they had her as long as they did." Wagner credits the three daughters with getting him through the immediate grief of Natalie's death. "I didn't have much strength in the beginning," he recalls, "but the strength I got from them was incredible. I felt they cared so much for me, and I honestly think that they comforted me more than I comforted them."

    R.J. still finds it hard to talk about Natalie. "Sometimes," he says, "it is a struggle to make it through the day." After she died, accidentally drowning near their 60-foot yacht Splendour on Nov. 29,1981, R.J. spent a week in miserable solitude until his housekeeper, Willina Mae Worthern the maid, forced him to get out of bed and take care of the children—and himself.

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  46. Willie-Mae will never speak publicly about either Natalie or RJ. She lived with RJ after Natalie's death and helped him raise the girls which was what Natalie requested in her will. Natalie's estate paid her salary until the girls reached their majority. Willie-Mae remained with RJ after the girls went to live on their own. She would never speak out against him nor would she reveal any facet of his or Natalie's private lives.

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  47. Wagner didn't raise the oldest daughter. She lived with her mother nearby.

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  48. What is this article supposed to prove?

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  49. Davern was an employee for many years. There was no "mistaken identity."

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  50. Your vast files? The article is archived on People.com. Anyone can put it in their "files" . LOL. Her name is Willie-Mae Worthen. People magazine may not lie but apparently you do as her name is not spelled as you claim that it is. Anyone can go to the archive and see that for themselves. I suggest you go back and check your "vast files". Columnist? LOL
    The resident troll has returned.

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  51. I didn't mention "the older daughter". I referred to Natalie's children.
    Katie lived with Natalie and RJ during school vacations until she was 12 which was when she moved in full time.

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  52. The girl lived with her mom nearby. Her mom let her stay over. Wagner didn't raise her like the article says. What is the point of this article?

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  53. He is trying to prove that he spelled Willie-Mae's name correctly. He posted a part of the article in which her name appeared and changed the spelling to make it appear that his spelling is correct. Anyone can go to the People archive and see how her name is spelled. How pathetic.

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  54. Wasn't he asked nicely to STAY AWAY. What's wrong with him?

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  55. First things first!
    That article comes from the July 4, 1983 issue of People. You want vast files? Let me get you some!Anytime! Anyplace!
    You "doctored" that article! It states the name as WILLE MAE WORTHEN and gives her title as housekeeper. You added "the maid" along with the Willina and the "r" in her sir name. . The least you could have done was remove the redundancy of addressing the woman with two titles!
    Enough with you...
    Moving on. I concur with the previous OP. I'm sure Miss Worthen signed a confidentiality agreement upon hire. She lived in the home and was the children's Nanny. I'm sure she feels allegiance to Natalie's daughters. Whether we agree with that or not I think we should respect it. She is into her octogenarian years and surely lives a quiet private life.

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  56. Wagner raised her since she was born. He was a constant presence in her life. Marion had custody but RJ had liberal visitation which allowed Katie to stay with him and Natalie on weekends and school vacations. Her Mom did not let her, it was specified in the custody agreement. Marion worked a great deal. She was not at home during the daytime hours so they agreed that it would be in Katie's best interest to live with RJ and Natalie.

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  57. Wagner didn't raise the girl. End of story.

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  58. Katie Wagner's resident address was never at 603 Canon Drive. NEVER!
    Discuss it until your head explodes but that is the fact. Deal with it.

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  59. Yes, the troll was asked very nicely to stay away. As for what's wrong with him, isn't it obvious?

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  60. Rebecca Howell

    Thanks for the clarification I thought that the maid had said something and that was the reason this was mentioned.

    As for Katie- what difference does it really make. All Dad's have visitation and I am sure that all the girls adored Nat. Who wouldn't
    So I actually think Nat is portrayed in a positive light in that article even if RJ is claiming he raised all three girls.

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  61. Willie Mae should be left alone.

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  62. The difference is the troll.

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  63. Anon 8:48, Katie lived with Natalie and RJ from age 12. She had her own room up in the children's suite with Natasha and Courtney. If you choose to believe that she did not, for whatever reason, then fine. It's not terrible important, calm down, not a bid deal.

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  64. She visited with them. She lived with her mom nearby.

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  65. What gets me about that article is that "it's a struggle to make it through the day" BS. He had a girlfriend just 3 months after Natalie died but it was a struggle for him to make it through the day? BOO HOO for him! He did those interviews so people would feel sorry for him, playing the devastated widower. He's a fake and phony.

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  66. Just checked the article in People archives and he did change the spelling of Willie Mae's name and he added the word maid. That man is crazy.

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  67. By that time Dennis should have been out of the house. I don't think Wagner was having any trouble. He is such a phony.

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  68. He was keeping an eye on Dennis for the first year after Natalie died. He was playing the grieving widow in front of Dennis.

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  69. Rebecca Howell

    The fact is RJ f-ed up and he knew it. So he was grieving in his own way. I do think that he realized he was a murderer and don't you think murderers are always paranoid. They would have to be. Even if you committed the "perfect crime"- you would always be paranoid that not getting caught was too good to be true. So if you believe that he made veiled threats thru his lawyer- that was because he was afraid. Innocent people might be mad if someone slandered them but they wouldn't make threats like that. Innocent people would ignore the gossip until it died down.

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  70. His grief was for himself, not for Natalie.

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  71. Rebecca Howell

    Maybe he felt grief for himself and Natalie. I think that we all are human and I suspect that many people if they violently killed someone would try to cover their tracks. Fear of jail and humiliation are strong fears. So on the one hand I understand this aspect of the case. But my only sympathy lies with Natalie. Her life was taken and her image maligned. If Wagner comes clean before he dies, I think he could redeem himself and I am sure that the guilt ate away at him for along time. And then he had to make her "deserve" what happened. He had to forgive himself of what happened.
    We are all capable of killing- given a variety of circumstances but I think it only hurts the murderer by not coming clean because I don't think they ever have any peace. They are always having to lie to the people around them and they are haunted by the truth. If you think about it, if OJ had just fessed up at the beginning. We all understand jealousy and losing control. Most people don't kill but we understand these intense feelings. As they say, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" but what people want to see is remorse. He's 80. I really don't want him to go to jail. I want him to be a man and tell the truth. Then everyone would feel that Natalie's death isn't a lie.

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  72. Honey, My niece has a room in my house. She has had a room in my house since she was 12 years old when her Mother died. She comes and goes as she please and she is now 27 years old. She does not give my address as her resodence just like Katie's address what not Natalie's house.
    Up in the children's suite? The children's suite as you call it was not up anywhere. It was in the back of the house on the ground floor.

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  73. Rebecca Howell

    Am I missing something. Where did you find this information?

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  74. I would LOVE to see the old bastard spend time in jail...rot there until he dies, hopefull at 110 or better. That would be justice on earth.

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  75. The caption from that article makes no sense. How could he still be "raising" Katie Wagner (his daughter from a previous marriage)? She was an adult by that time, not a girl. Wasn't she living on her own?

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  76. In July 1983 she was 19.

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  78. ...which is an adult and past the age of being "raised" by a parent. Natalie was already married at that age.

    Wagner also referred to Katie Wagner as a "young child" who Natalie had to "take care of" in his book, one of his reasons for her to not go on location for Brainstorm. This was a pretty stupid thing to say considering she was 17 and a half years old at the time, and absolutely none of Natalie's responsibility, but the responsibility of Wagner and his ex-wife Marion.

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  79. Rebecca, Natalie's death was not an accidental death. It was not a quick death done in the moment. Natalie was alive when Wagner put her into the ocean--and he knew Natalie was alive. Natalie floated alone in the dark, cold water towards her death--throughout the night. Wagner waited hours before calling for help. It appears to me he was waiting for Natalie to die; he could not have known how long that would take.

    I do want to see him in jail. That is where he should be.

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  80. No one calls anyone a troll based on differing views. You are called a troll because you are the troll!!!
    Do you think we are all stupid? If you are NOT the troll, why don't you email Marti and let her know who you are? (Marti, if you don't get an email from something identifying themselves, you can bet anything the troll is back)

    Whoever brought Willie Mae and the irrelevant People Magazine article into this thread has agenda we recognize from many other online stops. He is the troll, and nobody is getting it wrong 99% of the time. Marti has asked you to leave and I hope she pins you to the wall for harrassing us again. You deserve it. We all know who the only person is who makes comments like innocent until guilty (stupid) and bringing up Katie and Willie Mae, like you know everything from your vast files. You get 99% of your contribution wrong.

    Marti, you'll most likely get a little post from "R" saying it's not him, as he did in the other thread, but we all know it's him. He is here at your blog again, swaying fact and trying to prove he knows things he has never known.

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  81. He can't stay away when we talk about how Wganer killed Natalie.

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  82. I remember a story from NatChat several years ago from one of the group members who met Robert Wagner one night after he and his wife saw him in a play. I forget all the details, but the man was thrilled to meet Wagner. Wagner drank heavily at the afterparty this man was thrilled to be invited to. By the end of the night, Wagner's true colors were revealed when he started making comments about a black woman in the room. I think he called her a "black mama on welfare" or something to that effect. This was a genuine story from someone who met Wagner, and all the Wagner fans at NatChat attacked the guy for telling it.
    Natalie's girls loved Willie Mae and thought of her as their mother more than they cared for Jill. I doubt Willie Mae had any inkling what Wagner was like. He couldn't afford to lose Willie Mae so he probably was doting toward her, but he's a rotten scroundrel on the inside. I heard about this long before Marti's book. Does anyone remember, or am I one of the few from the NatPak when people cared about Natalie? TR

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  83. I confused NatChat where I never joined (but was invited) with NatPak. The story I mentioned is from NatPak. It's been a long time since I posted anything about Natalie. I still miss her and want her justice but got so involved it was affecting my life. I would dance in the street (maybe naked) if Wagner went to jail. TRA

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  84. Marti, I am one of the very first members at your blog, and still am a member, but I don't sign in. I follow and want you to know my support goes way back and still exists. TRA

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  86. Marti, when this personal banter and who or who isn't trolling your blog stops I will be back. Until then I will go back to silently supporting GNGS and you. If you need me, you know where to find me without a moment's hesitation.
    As I've seen so many personal statements thrown about I'd like to make just one. I am one of your very first blog buddies as you are well aware of. As we both know, our friendship goes back to the "proof" days. I would love to sign in and stop the anonymous "friends close...enemies closer" tag but I just can't abide having my privacy and the privacy of my family and friends exposed because of trolling banter.
    Once again I sign off with: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

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  87. It's not that big a deal these are things all blogs run into.

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  88. Anon 1:55
    You are causing discord at my blog. Whatever your name is, I would appreciate if you would take your views elsewhere better suited to them. You take us off course, and are a bit too snippy with blog memers for my liking. So, now we will be clear of you and who everyone is accusing you to be. Maybe you didn't understand, I want NONE of this here, and you seem to be the one causing it. Thank you for your cooperation in this request.

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  90. Anonymous 12:42

    Anonymous said...
    "He can't stay away when we talk about how Wganer killed Natalie."

    You hit the nail on the head.

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  91. and once again, he raised his hand!

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  92. These messages from "R" remind me of Blanche's desperate pleading in her telephone calls for help in "Streetcar Named Desire."

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  93. Anon. 12:42, I believe that is true. He will always try to sabotage the blog when the discussion turns to Wagner's involvement in Natalie's death.

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  94. LOL, thanks Kevin, we needed that!

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  95. He seems to be obsessed with it. When this thread was posted, I knew it would not be long before he surfaced. Maybe we should ignore his troll-some posts, post around him? I believe he wants to destroy Marti's blog.

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  96. I think it goes something like this: he purposely writes a post (sometimes a blatant lie) that will provoke one of us and then the entire discussion goes off track. He turns it into a circus.

    I, too, checked the People article. He actually changed the spelling of the housekeepers name. He is trying to make us and the blog look foolish.

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  97. That's exactly right, Kevin. Marti has recognized that also.

    What he did with the People article made HIM look foolish.

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  98. But then the entire discussion does a 180 and we are talking about Willie Mae instead of Wagner. I wonder if he did it on purpose (mispelling her name)?

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  100. I know this sounds far-fetched, but sometimes I wonder if he is being paid to do this kind of thing--wherever Wagner and murder are discussed?

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  101. but to go to the lengths that he did to try to convince readers that he was right, is ridiculous. To bring up Willie Mae was his way of changing the subject and giving Wagner a shot in the arm.

    When he does this trolling, the blog becomes quiet for days.

    We need to get back to what we were discussing or stay away until Marti is able to join us. Because of this troll-some behavior, this blog needs to be moderated or have a mandatory sign-in.

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  102. Every time we discuss the troll, without mentioning a name, the same person surfaces. DUH! That in itself is a BIG RED FLAG!

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  103. Anon 9:17, This person has purposely tried to sabotage this blog for the past year. He has no credibility. He constantly tries to manipulate our discussions by twisting the truth around.

    No one here is doing what he has done. That is wrong.


    I have seen his posts on many groups that discuss Wagner and Natalie.

    He is a problem that needs to be addressed.

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  104. The problem that needs to be addressed is that none of you can probve this without a reasonable doubt. You can go up one side of it and down the other all you want but until Marti takes action anyone can say anything they want on here and it is perfectly legal much as calling Marti and Dennis those disgusting names on other sites are too. If it all wasn't, each of you including me would not be saying the things we have about Wagner. I am defending no one. I am only stating a fact.

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  105. I am addressing this problem (privately) that apparently won't go away on its own. Once again, I ask whoever is causing these distractions to simply STAY AWAY from the blog. It's a simple thing to do. I have to make a few deletions, but we can carry on. If Willie Mae is discussed here, I hope it stays within the boundaries of what a wonderful substitute mother she was for Natalie's girls. Raising them was rather easy for Wagner because of Willie Mae presence. Here's a fact: Dennis lived at Wagners house for a year after Natalie died, and Wagner was not constantly with his daughters. In fact, Dennis rarely saw them, because Willie Mae kept them occupied and well taken care of. Wagner worked long hours away from the house, and Dennis worked with him on the Hart to Hart set. Willie Mae is who most helped Natalie's grieving girls in the immediate aftermath. I suppose Wagner's little explanation about the girls having helped him more than he helped them is true, but in essence, just another way of saying, "I had my own life to get back to." And he did, by starting to date Jill within weeks of Natalie's death. That speaks for itself. Grieving husband? Please.

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  106. Anon 10:17. We can say what we say about Wagner because it is based on an eyewitness account and published in a book that passed a legal department's scrutiny.

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  107. We have no way of knowing if Natalie was unconcious when first hitting the water. But, in the original speculation out of the coroner's office, it was stated that she probably was unconscious. There must have been evidence to indicate as much and for the coroner to have made such a statement. He suggested she hit her head on the swim step. Maybe because such a statement was made is why Marilyn Wayne was ignored. What a terribly botched case! It all leads back to the NEED for this case to be re-examined.

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  108. This case was mishandled by all involved.
    Noguchi must have speculated about Natalie being unconscious because the Coroner's report showed not indication of that, unless he deleted it from the official report. Most of Noguchi's finding were no less speculative than what we have done in this thread but we are not under any pressure to keep secrets or to alter our speculation to suit the "accidental drowning" theory.

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  109. I remember Robert Wagner was quoted as saying "I pray that she was unconscious when she hit the water."

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  110. Probably another telling statement of his!

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  111. Isn't it funny how a panting, sweating, disheveled Wagner had Dennis search the boat immediately after Dennis came upon him? He said that "Natalie was missing."

    After Dennis searched the boat and tells Wagner she isn't on it, Wagner opens a bottle of scotch and proceeds to get Dennis and himself drunk. What happened to Wagner's initial concern for Natalie when Dennis surprised him on the back of the boat? He seemed to be in a state of panic. Why, all of a sudden, did Wagner forget about Natalie?

    Could it be he sent Dennis away to give himself time to "finish up?"

    How could he be frantic about searching for Natalie one moment, and then prevent searching for her the next?

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  112. Sounds that way, Kevin. For whatever reason, he wanted Dennis to be elsewhere while he released the dinghy?

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  113. The official version of this case means bubkus. It isn't worth the paper it is written on.

    I'm tired of people telling us we can't prove anything. Well, it may not be official, but I think we have come up with many of the answers to Natalie's death.

    Marti did more investigating than any one of the "official" detectives. Without her work, we never would have known half the things we now know.

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  114. I gave the example of Wagner telling Dennis to search for Natalie because I don't think there is any question that Wagner was stalling for time. He sent Dennis on a wild goose chase. I didn't know for sure a year ago, but with enough discussion and enough time, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that that is exactly what Wagner was doing--releasing the dinghy and covering his tracks.

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  115. It fits like a glove. He wanted Dennis out of sight so he could release the dinghy. It was not until he returned that he told Dennis that the dinghy was gone.

    The people who keep saying that we can't prove this and that are people who don not want to face up the truth. That Wagner was right there for all of it and he was responsible for her being in the water and was the responsible for the time that elapsed that made the difference between her living and dying. It's all on him!

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  116. Rebecca Howell

    If only someone would sue him civilly but I think it has to be an immediate family member who can claim pain and suffering and Lana hasn't done that and I doubt his daughter's would. But that would embarrass him and this whole thing would be brought out in court and in front of the media. It would be great!

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  117. Yesterday was Courtney's birthday, 37 years old. Neither of Natalie's daughters seems to have an especially happy life. It had to have been traumatizing to lose one's mother so early in life, especially a mother as devoted and loving as Natalie was.

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  119. She is still Natalie's daughter and I think you could have just a bit of respect for her in that regard. Pleaase remember that Natalie adored her children and she loved Katie too. I agree, with your feelings about Courtney never honoring her Mother's memory but some things truly are better left unsaid because at times those words can go to far.
    Sign me: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer..

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  120. My sentiments, exactly.

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  121. I believe the post of Anon9:00pm needs to be removed from this blog, that statement is out of line and disrespectful and has NO place here. Thank you, Pam

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  122. I agree with Pam and am removing the disrespectful post about Courtney. I would appreciate if we refrain from insulting Natalie's surviving family here.

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  123. And I'm sure there are Wagner supporters who are thinking that he was a member of her surviving family and we owe him the same respect we owe her children. NOT! He was a man in her life who proved to be a selfish jerk. He is the person responsible for her children not having a mother to guide them through life and for Natalie being robbed of the joy of watching her girls grow into women. We owe him NOTHING!

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  124. I knew exactly what Marti meant by family members and didn't think for a sec that she was including Wagner in her statement.

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  125. I think we all know what Marti meant but Wagner's supporters have twisted her words in the past.

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  127. OH PLEASE! Stop stirring the pot. Given the experiences she has had with people twisting her words in the past, I'm sure she appreciates our efforts and our loyalty to her. End of story.

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  128. I haven't had a chance to read all the comments but I appreciated Rebecca's thoughts. I thought Natalie had *not* taken her sleeping pill that night though? I thought I read that in the Finstad book.

    I can't bring myself to read Pieces of My Heart so it's interesting to hear what's in it. So much of what I've heard about it sounds bizarre. The things RJ apparently wrote about other men's penises belongs in a prostitute's biography.

    I just shake my head at so much of it because I think Natalie would be mortified by all the developments after her death. I know very little about Courtney but I have a theory that she may have some serious psychological problems because of her struggle with what might have happened that night. I often wonder if Natasha is in serious denial, but Courtney is aware and very troubled by it. I feel for both women.

    KB

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  129. Natalie did NOT take a sleeping pill that night. She took one Darvon and one sea sickness pill. Both were undigested at the time of the autopsy.

    I agree about Courtney and about Natasha.

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  131. I recall reading an article about Mariska Hargitay. She reflected on growing up without a mother. She said that she never realized how losing her mother in childhood affected her until she was about 30 years old. I often would how Natasha and Courtney have dealt with their pain. IMO, although they love him very much, their father is a selfish man who acts on his wants and needs ahead of those of others. He cut them off from their mother's family, taking their mother away to an even great extent in doing that. Thank goodness they had someone who was a motherly figure to them in the person of Willie Mae.

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  132. I also think that to a large extent they did have Jill St. John in their lives but they wouldn't be human if they didn't miss their mother. In fact when a parent dies so young the are immortalized by the daughters. It is really sad and I think of my own children and if they didn't have me. My sons really come to me with every little problem in their life- even my 23 year old still needs to unburden himself and get my input. So I do feel for her daughters and I am glad that ugly post was removed.

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  133. Neither of Natalie's daughters had a close bond with St.John when they were children and teens. In fact, Courtney has said that she did not have a relationship with St. John until she was in her early 20s. It was at that point that they became "friends".

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  134. Is there a book out there that I missed. Where is this info coming from on the kids. I just wonder because I haven't seen them quoted anywhere. I'd like to see this.

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  135. Is was not in a book, it was on a website. An interview with Courtney was featured and she discussed her friendship with Jill in addition to her feelings about her mother.

    I know what you are inferring. LOL Whatever. Troll alert, folks!

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  136. Few things: about the info on Natalie's daughters, much of the info is gathered from articles and there is some info about them in the other Natalie books: also, Lana has told us things about them, too. Natasha has done many interviews, especially when she was involved in her film career. It's a shame what they have endured, growing up without their mother. And, yes, when I mentioned we shouldn't insult Natalie's surviving family, I should've said "blood relatives" -- but it's fine that I was explained.

    Sorry, I've been terribly busy and not able to be at the blog much the past few days. So, I do appreciate when others explain or elaborate for me. Thanks to whoever said it's not necessary, but often it is helpful when someone picks up where I left off. Sometimes I post quickly, so those who elaborate or explain for me do so in good faith and I know who they are and their comments can be fully trusted. So, thanks to those of you who do that for me. Please remember, I'm fortunate enough to have people at this blog who I learn from. I spent so much time involved in the death of Natalie and its investigation that I really didn't do tremendous research on her life. I sure got to know what kind of a person she was, and I know her career well, but there are some here at the blog who are such dedicated, loyal fans of hers that they put the official biography to shame in "Natalie knowledge". I grew up a fan of hers and always admired her and loved her acting, but it was the investigation I got totally involved in. Lately, I've been doing more homework on Natalie's life and she gets better and better with everything I learn about her. Dennis was a lucky person to have known her.

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  137. It's in the same interview that Courtney said "I don't remember much about my mother. I remember her laugh and they way she smelled and I remember her hands."

    Of Jill she said "I'd say in the past 3 years I've developed a relationship with Jill." She said that it was worth the wait and she spoke well of Jill.

    Of Willie Mae she said "She raised me and is really more like my mother."

    Katie said "Natasha and Courtney share something together no one else will ever share."

    Natasha spoke of being in analysis, she said "I had to find a way yo continue to have a relationship with someone who is not here, at least physically, anymore."

    I hope this satisfies the doubts of anon 3:23---I don't make up stories and say "I read" when I did not.

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  138. I recall reading that interview too. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that interview around the time Courtney had her own Jewelry company "Wagner and Ko"?

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  139. Yes! She was excited about that. Thank you.

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  140. Rebecca Howell

    Thanks for the info. I have tried to find info on the girls. I guess Courtney was only 7 years old when her Mom died and Natasha was 10. When you think about it, Natasha has grown up without either of her biological parents- weird.

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  141. You are very welcome. Natasha was 11, Courtney was 7. Natasha has said that she saw a lot of her father, he visited her, she visited him. He is married to a well known author, Julia Gregson. She is close to them. Natasha refers to Julia as "my step-mother". Gregson has 3 kids from his first marriage and a daughter with Julia. Natasha refers to them as her brother and her sisters. He was in her life but he abided by Natalie's wish that her daughters be raised together. As a matter of fact, it was her wish that if anything happened to RJ and Gregson were to take custody of Natasha, she asked that he, Gregson, take custody of Courtney. also. It's not that she wanted RJ, specifically, to raise Natasha, it was that she wanted her kids raised in the same household. That was paramount to her.

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  142. Good info everybody. :-) It helps paint a much clearer picture of Natalie and her wishes for her family.

    I've wondered if one of Natalie's daughters will write a book or cooperate with a journalist to talk about their real feelings after RJ is gone. I do wish Lana had the resources to file a civil suit against RJ.

    KB

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  143. It must be difficult for the daughters to be honest about true feelings.

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  144. I used to think RJ innocent of any wrongdoing, but now I think he had a hand, literally, in Natalie's demise. RJ's actions and lack of action are just too suspicious. I think RJ probably untied the dinghy himself and after telling Natalie to get off "his" boat, he shoved her, and over she went. I do think the call for help Marilyn Wayne heard came from another boat. I think Natalie was unconscious when she hit the water, and I think she drowned very shortly afterward due to the undissolved pills in her stomach. Pills don't take long at all to dissolve, and if either were capsules, those come open in a matter of minutes.

    Sadly, I don't think the case will be reopened. LE seems to want it closed.

    Lana has the resources to sue RJ in civil court. If she's wanting for money, she can get a fee waiver.

    I have a question about Natalie's daughters. I've read that Katie is especially close to Courtney. Is that correct, or do I have Courtney confused with Natasha on that count? I do know Natasha is the older of Natalie's daughters and I know what the girls look like.

    Thanks.

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  145. Nope, they were pills not capsules and the pills were partially dissolved. They could have been in the stomach for hours.
    The only boat that reported trouble was the Splendor.

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  146. They couldn't have been in for hours, but longer than a few minutes. If we take a pill, it will usually be dissolved, in the bloodstream and beginning to work in under an hour. No pills take hours to get in our bloodstream. The fact that they were in her stomach meant that she'd taken them just prior to going in the water - however that happened - and that she died very soon after.

    I still don't think it was Natalie MW heard calling for help due to the pills in Natalie's stomach. I think someone else who was partying called for help and didn't have any real trouble.

    Of course, the pills only tell people that Natalie went into the water almost as soon as she took the pills and that she died very, very soon after taking the pills. They don't tell anything about how she got into the ocean. Like many people, I don't think Natalie would have set off in the dinghy - fear or no fear - in her nightgown, socks and jacket. Unless the door leading to the swim steps was open - and why would it be at night when no one was swimming - she couldn't very well have fallen. The sides of the boat were too high. I could see her slipping, but she wouldn't have gone into the water. She would have slid into the back of the boat. She didn't have to leave the deck or open the door to the swim steps to retie the dinghy.

    She obviously was never in the dinghy since the key was in the "Off" position and the oars were locked.

    I don't see RJ as a killer per se, but people do things they ordinarily wouldn't do when they're drunk and angry, and RJ did like to get drunk. I can see him hitting her, pushing her, turning his back on her after she was in the water. That's murder.

    Just my opinion, of course.

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  147. Nope, when we are fighting for our life digestion shuts down so the pills give no indication of when she died. That is why the coroner had to make a guess.

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  148. Sure, shock slows digestion and motility down, but not to the point where they would take hours to dissolve in a living human being. I don't take the coroner's word. He said her coat pulled her under. If that would have been the case, she wouldn't have been found floating.

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  149. To send blood to the extremeties digestion shuts down completely. The pills would have remained in the stomach the entire time she was alive. She was in cold water which only increases blood to the arms and legs.

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  150. Once hypothermia set in normal metabolism would have ceased funtioning.

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  151. Because of the down jacket Natalie died a slow death.

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  152. You have your opinion and I have mine on this. It's really about gastric motility and not digestion.

    I'm agreeing with you in that motility (we're talking about gastric motility, not digestion) would have been slowed, it just wouldn't have been slowed for hours.

    I don't think she was even conscious in the water, and I'll be glad if I'm right about that. It would mean she at least didn't suffer that part. If RJ hit her, she knew it, though, so I hope he did knock her out and she drowned within minutes.

    I don't buy that her fingernails left scratch marks on the side of the dinghy. How does anyone leave scratch marks on rubber? Not possible.

    Yes, the cold water would have increased circulation to the arms and legs, but gastric motility isn't dependent on circulation.

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  153. It takes some time for hypothermia to set in. It's not immediate.

    I think Natalie had a pretty rapid death, and I'm glad of that, and I think RJ knew that it was rapid.

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  154. This is not an opinion it is is a medical fact. Digestion would have shut down and it is as simple as that. It is the mode the body goes into when trying to stay alive. The body is not concerned with digestion. It's in emergency mode and digestion shuts down until things return to normal. This is not an opinion.

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  155. I'm not talking about digestion. I'm talking about gastric motility. Even if I were talking about digestion, it doesn't "just stop" with shock. It takes "some" time. The time will vary from person to person. That's a medical fact. If there's one thing I do know about, it's medical facts.

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  156. I don't think this person understands that gastric motility is part of the digestion process.

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  157. If she was hypothermic enough for digestion and gastric motility to shut down, she would have been unconscious as well. She certainly couldn't have been calling out to people. And Robert Wagner wouldn't have stood around while someone from another boat, who was definitely not under his control like Davern was, might have saved her life no matter what he said. If Wagner had anything to do with her death, she was unconscious when she went into the water. If she was unconscious, then she died within minutes. If she was conscious, Wagner would have rescued her to save himself. They were in a crowded area, with other boats nearby and people were awake. He wouldn't have taken the chance that someone from another boat would pull her out of the water.

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  158. Obviously he did.

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  159. She would have been calling for help before hypothermia set in because it doesn't set in immediately. Hypothermia is different from the fight or flight syndrome. Natalie experienced both.

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  160. What do you think he would have said? "Oh, don't pull her out of the water. I'm letting her drown." LOL No way would he take that chance.

    And gastric motility would depend on what she took the pill with. If she took it with plain water, it would take longer. If she took it with alcohol or anything with sugar in it, natural or not, the process of digestion would be accelerated.

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  161. I'm glad you're not crime scene investigators.

    It's not obvious he did. Marilyn Wayne did not identify the voice as Natalie's, only "a woman's."

    Yes, I said it takes some time for hypothermia to set in. The pills would have exited her stomach unless she drowned when she went into the water.

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  162. I think Wagner thought she was going to drown immediately because she could not swim. But the genius Wagner put a down coat on a person he was trying to drown. Not to bright. He watched until she floated away, which was rather fast.

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  163. Natalie could swim some. As she put it, "a little." I think he thought the down jacket would pull her under.

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  164. Wasn't Natalie the person that drowned? Makes sense that Marilyn Wayne would have heard Natalie yelling for help.

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  165. It is correct that the pills would not have been digested. Her body was under extreme conditions.

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  166. People were partying and drinking all over Isthmus Cove that night. Someone from another boat could have been calling for help and gotten help. Easy. I know Wagner liked to drink. I know they fought terribly that night. I don't think Wagner was going to let Natalie drown if she was yelling for help. Not with other boats nearby. He isn't a genius, but he isn't that dumb, either. Marilyn Wayne could have heard any woman in the area. Some people who were docked there heard a woman calling for help as well and said the cries did not come from the direction of the Wagners' boat.

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  167. That's why he called for hekp right away when Natalie was missing.

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  168. Natalie said, "I can swim a little, but I'm still afraid of the water - dark water." Why would Wagner release the dinghy if Natalie was conscious? She probably couldn't have made it to short, she wasn't a strong swimmer at all, but she could have probably made it to the dinghy. It only makes sense that she was unconscious. If he let her drown. If it was an accident, well, then, she might very well have been conscious.

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  169. Wayne only heard music coming from the Splendour.

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  170. shore, not short.

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  171. He released the dinghy after he saw she floated away. Sorry, but the man killed her.

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  172. After she drowned, then. If she would have been conscious, she would have still been fighting for her life, not floating away.

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  173. Let's see, a man fighting with his wife on the back of their boat. The wife ends up dead seven hours later. Gee, I wonder what happened?

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  174. Marti said that it is hard to control your movements in the jacket. Natalie could barely swim so she went where the currents took her.

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  175. Yea, there was a real party going on on Marilyn Wayne's boat.

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  176. It's going to take a LOT more than that to get the case reopened. LE wants to go with their theory and keep the case closed, which says he didn't kill her.

    Yes, it would have been near impossible to swim, but if Natalie had been conscious, don't you think she was smart enough to take the jacket off? I think she was. I think she was highly intelligent, and she wasn't that drunk.

    Oh, well, it doesn't matter what did or didn't happen. LE isn't going to reopen the case, and nothing will bring Natalie back.

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  177. Did you really think about what you just wrote? Why would Natalie take off the one thing that was preventing her from drowning? She wasn't the type of swimmer who could handle those ocean currents.

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  178. Don't bother trying to talk sense to these people. They don't want the truth.

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  179. Swimming "a little bit" is equivalent to not swimming at all in the bottomless ocean. She was not a swimmer. AND, let us not forget that she must have been petrified being alone in the deep, dark water.

    It's common knowledge that shock slows down digestion to the point that digestion my cease. Also, cold water slows down digestion.

    Everyone was inside their boats. If they were partying, it was done indoors. Dennis was there as was Lyn Taylor. They know more about that than any tabloid article or book..

    Robert Wagner knew she would not survive. Even if she was an Olympic swimmer, he knew that she would not survive due to the cold water. The jacket may have provided some warmth but it could not prevent the body from losing heat faster than it could produce it.
    According to the trained, experienced coast guard lifeguard, she did not die quickly. She was alive in the water for some time.

    Why would Natalie remove the jacket? It was helping her float.

    No one else heard a person crying for help, that's totally untrue.

    There were not capsules in her stomach, they were pills. That's what appears in the coroner's report.

    Gastric motility aids in digestion, it's part of the process.

    "Highly intelligent" She was in the water, fighting for her life, hypothermia was setting in gradually, panic ensues, she was petrified, WTH does intelligence have to do with this.

    As for releasing the dinghy, Wagner knew that she would not survive due to the cold and her own terror.

    Wagner was with her on the back deck, he knew where she was and waited and waited and waited until it was too late.

    He lied to the police about his own actions. Innocent people don't have a reason to lie to the police.

    As for the LACSD, because the case was tainted by lies, they should take another look at it, put Wagner in the hot seat, ask him why he lied, why he waited so long to call for help etc,

    He is solely and completely responsible for her death. End of story.

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  180. The Truth. That's the elusive thing isn't it. If I were a defense attorney I could easily poke holes into every single assertion or theory about Wagner's guilt. And then it would be up to a jury to determine the truth. The reason I'm saying this is because I think it speaks directly to the fact that this case hasn't been reopened yet and stands virtually no chance of ever being re-opened because it's just as easy to deflect any charges against Wagner as it is to make them. It becomes a war of speculation. And think about this...it would take Wagner , Davern AND Walken to all submit testimony about an event that happened 30 years ago. A half-skilled defense attorney could easily present Wagner as an elderly man in the twilight of life with diminishing mental capabilities incapable of recalling, with any credibility, the events of that night. He could do the same with Walken and Davern and that's before he even gets around to how much alcohol and drug use occurred with all involved...These are factors that a prosecutor is forced to consider when determining the win-ability of a case.
    Signed,Lookin' at the big picture.

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  181. That didn't work for Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry, the two men convicted in court for killing four black girls in a 1963 church bombing. Cherry was 72 and in ill health when he went to prison. He died just 2 years later. He was convicted 39 years after he killed those girls.

    If they listened to you those families never would have had their justice.

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  182. Did either of these people have unlimited funds to hire high calibre celebrity defense teams? I'm not trying to be Buzz Killington here but we should acknowledge that Wagner just might have a plan of his own to deflect all of this. I would love to see Walken come forward with his version of things, it might be very helpful for Natalie if he can be honest about what he did see and hear before he passed out. (As I believe he did) This would tend to lend Dennis a TON of credibility which has historically been called into question.

    Listen, Im not trying to let Wagner off the hook for any of this but I think he's not going to go down without a well funded fight that will almost certainly outlast his remaining time on Earth.

    Im just sayin' maybe there should be more than one plan of attack on this guy's untarnished armour.
    Lookin at the big Pic.

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  183. Swimming a "little bit" is definitely NOT the same as not swimming at all. I don't swim "at all." I could testify, under oath, to anyone that swimming a "little bit" would make a world of difference. Why would Natalie keep wearing the one thing that was preventing her from swimming to the dinghy or to another boat? There were other boats close by. Wagner couldn't have "known" anything. People do many thing they think they can't do when their life is at stake.

    According to an eminent, highly trained coroner, her death was accidental. According to trained law enforcement officials, her death was accidental. According to trained law enforcement officials, it still is. The Coast Guard didn't know if she died quickly or not. Like everyone else, he could only guess.

    Why would Wagner leave his wife in the ocean when there were many other people close by, people who could have heard her screams? It's a good question. In case you didn't notice, the poster who asked it was AGREEING WITH YOU, at least initially. He or she just didn't agree with your scenario and thought Natalie was unconscious the entire time she was in the water and died quickly. After reading the posts, so do I.

    I also agree with the person two posts up, who started his or her post with "The Truth." Not only did these events take place thirty years ago, everyone on board the Splendour was drunk and taking drugs, some more than others. I'm not saying Davern is lying, I do not know, I'm just agreeing with the poster who said his testimony and Walken's could easily be impeached due to the fact that they were drinking and taking drugs and due to the fact that so much time has gone by. No jury would ever convict Wagner "beyond a reasonable doubt." With the amount of time, the drinking, the drugs, what people in the restaurant observed, nothing about this case would be "beyond a reasonable doubt" any longer.

    Lookin' at the Big Picture, Too.

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  184. Not only do I believe no jury would ever convict Wagner "beyond a reasonable doubt," the standard needed for a criminal conviction, I don't think any Grand Jury would ever return a True Bill.

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  185. We won't know unless we keep trying...that is the point. You've got to keep at it. It would be wrong to let a murderer go free without trying. Doesn't matter if it's 10, 20, 30 or 40 years. So long as the person that committed the murder is still alive, we have an obligation to keep pushing for justice for the victim. I think that's the way most of us see it.


    Natalie could not swim with the jacket on and she would have drowned with it off. The coroner was silenced when he talked about there being a fight. The coroner goes by what the police bring him. I think that we are all aware that the detectives didn't bring him anything.

    Our legal system has made so many mistakes over the years. Some 200 people have been released from death row in the last decade because mistakes were made by "trained" people.

    There is so much evidence against Wagner that I would love to see him in a court of law.

    To look at the "Big Picture" you have to look at all of the evidence. There is too much of it to back down.

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  186. Wagner saw that Natalie was floating away and Dennis had the music playing very loud. Only Ms Wayne heard her so that should answer your question.
    He thought Natalie was going to drown because she was so fearful of dark water that she would panic and go under. However, her down jacket kept her afloat, and Natalie was at the mercy of the ocean. She could not control her movements in the coat and she would have been too frightened to take it off. The currents were swift.

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  187. I remember when they said O.J. was a doomed...that no jury wouldn't convict him. You just never know.

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  188. The coroner's theory doesn't hold water when you consider that Natalie still had her socks on. They really screwed up in that office.

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  189. Once again, Wagner's lies are overwhelming. He confirmed the breaking of the bottle but he has never confirmed or denied the argument with Natalie in the stateroom and on the back deck. At first and for years he claimed that the last time he saw her was when she went to the stateroom, that he went to "kiss her goodnight" and she was gone.
    Then he changed his story when he admitted that he lost his temper and broke a glass bottle and that Natalie stormed off, then he changed that story and said she was not there when he broke the bottle. that she had gone to bed before he broke the bottle. In that version he included the little ditty about seeing her in her nightgown in front of the mirror, He told so many different versions that one loses track. Of course he never told the esteemed Detective Rasure that he broke a bottle in his wife's face. Perhaps if he had done so, this case would have taken a different turn but it's what followed that is the BIG PICTURE! He never mentioned that he went into the stateroom, that Natalie was there and that they had a fight that took them to the back deck. HELLO! If Robert Wagner told the police that he went to the stateroom and Natalie was there and that they had a huge fight and that the last time he saw her was on the rear deck of the boat the case would have taken a very different turn. The accidental death finding were based on lies. If Wagner told the truth, he would have been taken into custody and charged with a capital offense. There's your BIG PICTURE!

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  190. As for the "drug" use. Let's see, the night before they all took one Quaalude, Saturday night Dennis and Walken smoked a joint, Natalie took a sea sickness pill and a pain pill. Hardly a big Hollywood drug party.

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  191. As for Natalie swimming, MAYBE a "little bit" in the pool or in shallow water where the feet can touch the bottom, not in the ocean.
    If she had swimming abilities she would not have needed people to hold on to her in scenes in movies that called for her to be in the water and she was not in the deep, bottomless ocean water, she had people all around her.

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  192. As for the people who worked in the restaurant, they sang a different song when they were being paid for their services. Their story about what went on in the restaurant was not quite as exciting and soapy as what they told the police, not even close.
    Someone has been reading too many tabloids.

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  193. Anon 8:17, You are right. I was listening to the director of "The Memory of Eva Ryker" talk about Natalie and her fear of the ocean. He worked with her just 2 years before she died. There is a scene where she was supposed to run into the ocean from the beach. Not far into the water..she would still be standing. She couldn't do it. He said she was very nervous when she asked to speak to him. She didn't want to be a problem, but she told him that there was no way she could do that scene. He used a double.

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  194. I feel without the down jacket Natalie would have panicked and gone under quickly. Though the jacket kept her afloat it prolonged her agony. Since no one was looking for her the coat did not end up helping her.

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  195. Oh please! The Wagner robots will say anything. Natalie was terrified of dark water. ALL HER LIFE!
    I swim. I love the water whether it be Ocean, lake or pool. I am not afraid of water but have I ever been thrown in to the Ocean on a dark cold November night and left to fend for myself? Never and if it did happen I would be scared shitless! Sorry but there is no other word to use here!
    That bloated bum knew her darkest fear and his jealousy and rage took over and that is why Natalie Wood is dead. She was always head above him and he knew it. He isn't fit to clean her grave stone with his tongue.

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  196. Kevinr, I would love to see both Walken and Wagner forced to tell all they know about that night, if anyone can be forced. I just don't think it's ever going to happen. I don't think Walken will ever speak about it, and I don't think law enforcement will ever reopen the case.

    I wish Wagner, Walken, and Davern had all been separated and each made to tell his version of events the night Natalie drowned. That's what a competent investigator would have done. That didn't happen.

    No, you never know for sure, which is why I'm not going to say Wagner had a hand in Natalie's death, though it certainly looks as though he could have. There was certainly reason for Wagner, Walken, and Davern to be questioned separately and at length that morning. I can't imagine any reason Natalie would untie the dinghy except due to noise, and she could secure it or move it from deck, without opening the door to the swim steps. Don't you think Wagner would have at least changed the position of the key? Unlocked the oars? Even a halfway competent defense attorney would bring that up immediately.

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  197. No, I don't think Wagner would have thought of that. I think he was just trying to get rid of the dinghy so Dennis would not search any further. With the dinghy gone, he could tell Dennis Natalie was in it and lets leave her be.

    He knew it wouldn't take Dennis long to search the boat. Wagner had to act fast...he didn't know just when Dennis would return. He didn't know if Walken was around. For all Wagner knew Walken could have walked back there at any moment.

    You are thinking logically after the fact. I don't think that's how a person acts when he's in the middle of committing a crime. He was in state of panick. Panick at the thought of being caught.

    I would not believe Wagner if he came forward with a story. He has lied too much and too many times. I would like to hear Walken corroborate Dennis' account of that Saturday...whatever he can corroborate.

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  198. I'm thinking like a defense attorney would think, rather than "logically after the fact." I know people get messy when in a panic, but a defense attorney would offer up the locked oars as evidence that Wagner did not release the dinghy.

    At this point, I wouldn't believe Wagner, either. I also wouldn't believe Walken. Not after nearly thirty years of silence on the matter. I, personally, don't believe Walken was passed out the entire time unless he was really drunk. Loud music, a rip-roaring fight on the boat, a desperate search of the boat, he would have had to have been drunk if he slept through it all.

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